Defaults; how do they work

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Your GM is wrong by the rules as written. If you put enough points into it to raise it, you now have the skill for all purposes.

Yes, Kirbwarrior. You are right and your GM is wrong (just tell him with diplomacy).

As said above, the rule is very simple: as soon as you spent one full point in a skill, it is not anymore a default (even if it is improved from default). The point invested means that you actually trained (according to the Improvement Through Study rules, you need 200 hours with a teacher to get 1 character point).

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Not that I'm sure why it matters.

It matters if you want to have other defaults. Skill A cannot default from Skill B if Skill B is only known by default. But as soon as Skill B is improved (no matter if it is just from default), that is as soon as 1 full point is invested in it, you also have Skill A.

Likewise, it matters for Techniques. To improve a Technique, the skill is a prerequisite: you must have invested at minimum 1 point in it (here again, no matter whether it is done from default).

Finally, you do not get the special benefits of a skill if you only know it by default. You must have invested at least one point in a skill to get them. Which is actually done when you improve the skill from default.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Your GM is wrong by the rules as written. If you put enough points into it to raise it, you now have the skill for all purposes. Not that I'm sure why it matters.

According to B173 all you need is at least one point to be able to know the weapon enough to use all the special properties.

You don't have to put enough points in the skill to raise it.

[Vynticator]

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

According to B173 all you need is at least one point to be able to know the weapon enough to use all the special properties.

You don't have to put enough points in the skill to raise it.

Yes- so I was thinking the example above where someone puts 1 point into Rapier even though they technically have it at default skill 16 from a related skill, that doesn't tell the whole story. 1point doesn't raise the skill above default but I would rule as GM that you don't suffer familiarity penalties on top of the default skill.

Not sure anyone has mentioned familiarity penalties in this thread so far- extra difficulties if it is literally the first time you have picked up the gun/weapon in question. Sorry I don't have the page reference- not got my books to hand.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by Vynticator

Yes- so I was thinking the example above where someone puts 1 point into Rapier even though they technically have it at default skill 16 from a related skill, that doesn't tell the whole story. 1point doesn't raise the skill above default but I would rule as GM that you don't suffer familiarity penalties on top of the default skill.

Not sure anyone has mentioned familiarity penalties in this thread so far- extra difficulties if it is literally the first time you have picked up the gun/weapon in question. Sorry I don't have the page reference- not got my books to hand.

Actually the familiarity penalties are a different issue from the defaults.

Putting a single CP into a skill makes it a real skill and not a default, even if it doesn't raise it a level.

If you can point out in RAW where it says differently, I may change my mind.

As for familiarities, those are for specific weapons or even parts of weapons. Not having familiarity with a weapon gives (I believe) a -4 until you spend about eight hours of practice with that particular weapon. You might have a familiarity with the Poni 699 Demonsterizer, but not the Armsmith 2001 Lightsmasher, even though both of these are heavy laser pistols.

There is something in RAW where it says you get automatic familiarities free along with levels or points in a skill. Otherwise your character goes to the firing range or a weapons school or wherever is appropriate to practice.

Defaults have to do with skills. Familiarities have to do with specific types of objects.

I don't think that familiarities have been mentioned before is because we're talking skills.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

Putting a single CP into a skill makes it a real skill and not a default, even if it doesn't raise it a level.

If you can point out in RAW where it says differently, I may change my mind.

I think the question is whether putting a single CP into a skill is allowed if doing so will not raise the skill's level. Not 'one point in the skill is not sufficient to count as having the skill' but 'one point in the skill is not valid to have on your character sheet'.

I think it makes more sense to allow it than to not allow it.

[Kromm]

Steve Jackson himself answered this for GURPS Second Edition (and maybe even GURPS First Edition . . . it was in Roleplayer ages ago): You don't have to buy skills in full levels, either from scratch or from default. You can invest gradually. Admittedly, this is mostly a bookkeeping convenience for gamers who like their characters to work toward long-term goals – and it was more significant back when Physical skills cost 8 points/level – but some GMs insist that points be committed to skills one at a time, at a maximum rate of a point per session, to heighten realism. That's definitely permitted in the designer's own words, and one point is enough to say you "know" the skill.

Those who find this strange should consider that default skill is like having the skill for all quantitative purposes; e.g., those with Broadsword-18 can use Rapier-14 to attack at 14, feint at 14, parry at 10, etc. just as if they had bought Rapier-14 directly. What "knowing" the skill gives above and beyond a skill level is qualitative – namely, it switches on access to special options. Those options are roughly a perk-grade benefit if you've already invested enough points in some other skill to have all the quantitative benefits by default. Thus, one point is enough.

Put another way, wouldn't it be odd if somebody with DX 10, Broadsword (A) DX+3 [12]-13, and Rapier (A) DX-1 [0]-9 could get all the benefits of Rapier by spending a point to have Rapier (A) DX [1]-10, while somebody with DX 10, Broadsword (A) DX+5 [20]-15, and Rapier (A) DX+1 [0]-11 had to spend 4 points to have Rapier (A) DX+2 [4]-12 to gain those same benefits? That would amount to saying, "The special benefits of Rapier are perk-like if you're terrible, but cost four times as much if you're good." I think most people would agree that makes no sense, and so accept that if anybody working from an inter-skill default can gain those benefits for a point, then everybody should be able to do so.

[johndallman]

Gosh, you're posting good stuff today!

This is quite important for skills that have good mutual defaults, where the cost-effective thing is to get one of them as high as possible and default the others (Guns is the classic example). But that doesn't let you buy Techniques for the defaulted skill(s), whereas this does.

[kirbwarrior]

Awesome, thanks for all the help, everyone. I thought this was how it worked, but there is even expanded information I didn't think about (nice to know you can put any amount of points into a skill, even if the resulting points do always do something).

[Vynticator]

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

Actually the familiarity penalties are a different issue from the defaults.

<snip>

Defaults have to do with skills. Familiarities have to do with specific types of objects.

I don't think that familiarities have been mentioned before is because we're talking skills.

Yes, slightly different, but closely related. The skills being discussed are weapon skills, and familiarity affects those skills especially. So my point is that a point in a skill gets you not only the spin-off benefits within the skill but also the right to claim familiarity with two types of weapon within that skill. A default user would suffer familiarity penalties on top of the default penalty and not get related benefits. I would say that's pretty relevant to the discussion.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Vynticator

So my point is that a point in a skill gets you not only the spin-off benefits within the skill but also the right to claim familiarity with two types of weapon within that skill. A default user would suffer familiarity penalties on top of the default penalty and not get related benefits.

You can acquire familiarities with weapons, or other equipment used with a skill, for skills you don't have. You need to spend time doing so; you don't get to just claim familiarity, but it's thoroughly possible.