GILBERTO REVISED LOW TECH WEAPONS TABLE

[gilbertocarlos]

TL;DR: New weapon system, explanation below, file on the end of the post.

I've made an alternative weapon system, so that damage scales linearly with ST, no matter the weapon being used. I also changed the way penetration worked, so that some weapons of the same damage type(like cutting) have different degrees of penetration(see example below).
If I come up or someone pass to me a better/more realist stat for any weapon, I'll change this post.
So, enough with formalities, let's get to it.

GILBERTO REVISED LOW TECH WEAPONS TABLE
The weapon system was remade entirely. see below everything if you have the patience to.
*There is no more Sw or Thr damage, instead, every weapon has a multiplier.
*The formula for damage is Striking ST*Multiplier=10X, where X is number of dices, so, someone with ST15 and a Long Axe(*2 cut +) does 3d cut +.
*There will be many fractions, the way I see fit for rounding is:

Spoiler:  

• X.0 to X.2499 equals to Xd+0
• X.25 to X.4999 equals to Xd+1
• X.5 to X.7999 equals to Xd+2
• X.8 to X.9499 equals to Xd+3
• X.95+ equals to Xd+1d
• Alternatively, X.7+ can be converted to Xd+1d-1
• If damage is less than 1d:
• 0.03 to 0.0999 equals to 1d-5
• 0.1 to 0.2499 equals to 1d-4
• 0.25 a 0.4499 equals to 1d-3
• 0.45 to 0.6999 equals to 1d-2
• 0.7 to 0.9499 equals to 1d-1
• 0.95+ equals to 1d

*For people crazy about probabilities curves, damage should be 2d*X/2, for the long axe above, the formula would be 2d*1.5.
*Every damage type has a wound multiplier of *1, this can be changed, start from the 1 on the size/range table, each + and – goes on the proper direction, so, “+” is *1.5, “++” is *2, “+++” is *3, “++++” is *5, by the same token, “-” is *0.7, “--” is *0.5, “---” is *0.3, this allows a greater difference between weapons, frex, a broadsword(*1 ++) does more damage than an small axe(*1.2 +), but with a lower penetration.
*Many weapons changed, read below to see how.
*DR was added, now, weight doesn't matter for breaking, DR does(it has the same name, but is based on DR and HP), think of it as damage to shields, except that instead of taking damage, when it does X damage, you roll to break, so, a broadsword has DR9, when someone does 10+ damage to it, roll it's HT, on a failure, it breaks. Shields also have the same thing. Pi/Imp only do half damage for these purposes. This makes some weapons more likely to break than others heavier, frex, a spear or axe breaking will be more common than a sword.

What will change on my character weapon?

Spoiler:  

That will depend on the weapon he is using and his strength, you should expect lower damage.
Axes/Maces(also polearms): Damage won't change much, except if you have high strength and use an one handed, then it will be lowered. If you throw them, expect a lower range than they used to, but are also lighter. Sw/imp weapons are now the anti-armor weapon, also, no more one turn to attack and one to ready, unless you really want to, neither the super-halberd, weapon are now on the same damage range.
Swords: If you use a shortsword, good news, you have a CC weapon. In any case, the damage changed a lot, you shouldn't expect more than 2 dice while swinging. Against armor you should thrust, that does more damage with a lower multiplier. A one handed isn't a stand-alone weapon, but a very good backup, while a Two-handed one will be a specialized weapon, a dopplesoldner would do 1d+2 cut++.
Spears(also polearms): The standard spear now has a reach of 1, 2* with one hand, also, it also does more damage, but with a lower multiplier. If you like to throw your spears, good news, they go farther and are lighter.
Knives: Armor penetration is better now Joe Average can do 1d with a large knife, 1d-1 with a dagger. Also, no parry penalty, high breaking chance. They're also pricier, making the price gap from long knife to shortsword smaller. If you like to throw them, the extra price will make you more conservative on how many to buy, but if you want, you can always buy cheap ones.
Staff: You still have a good damage and a good parry, but not both at the same time.
Ranged weapons: Bows were nerfed, less damage and less penetration, crossbows do less damage, but still have a good penetration, overall, weapons are lighter.

If anyone have a better stat for any weapon, please, send a PM, I based it on logic and physics, I never wielded a real sword.
List of changes:

Spoiler:  

• Axe/Mace and Sword default at each other at -4
• Shortswords impdamage have a reach of C, 1. This makes them elite knives/shieldwall weapons, not crappy broadswords.
• The Shortsword and Broadsword skill were combined on the Sword skill.
• All fencing skills except main gauche were combined, rapier was the best of them anyway.
• Every sword is a thrusting one, if anyone really wants a crushing sword, use the normal stats with 2/3 of imp damage.
• Weights were fixed, no more 5lbs maces or 10lb polearms, although, I was conservative and used the high end weights.
• The table is simplified a bit, I deleted some weapons, mainly the ones worse in everything than others.
• Staffs only have +2 to Parry when used on a small swing, with reach 1, this way, it can still be used as defense and offense, but it's not superior to real weapons. Every dueling polearm has this option.
• Pi and Imp damage were combined also.
• Cutting was divided between Hacking(Axes, Polearms, dull swords), with “+” and Slashing(Swords, Knives) with “++”.
• Bastard sword was combined with Longsword, part because they're close, part because I can't translate longsword to portuguese.
• If anyone is missing a weapon, please PM me.
• Daggers have no parry penalty, they have a very low DR though.
• Every polearm is a dueling one, if you want a long polearm, use LTC2, all polearms/axes are †, unless using LTC2.
• Anyone with the spear skill can use a polearm with no penalties, but only for impaling attacks like a spear.
• Two Handed Axe/Mace and Polearm skills were combined.
• Axes and Small axes are the throwing kind, too much complication for too little difference, if anyone wants a non throwable one that gives -2 skill and -1 Acc, they get a $10 discount($5 if the cost is base cost is less than $50), they can put this discount to any thrown weapon.
• Until someone explains to me how can you cut with a sickle without using the hook technique, they are impaling weapons only.
• Bows had their damage reduced, as did crossbows, with I completely remade. The reason for that is simplicity and realism, I don't want to use the deadly spring, but I also don't want bows passing through armor as if it were butter, neither I wanted 20 similar options.
• I guess that thrown weapons should have one or two “+” but reduced damage, but I'm not certain, if anyone can help me with that I would be glad.
• Weapons used in 1 hand can be used in 2 hands, this multiplies damage by *1.2, the reverse DIVIDES damage by /1.2.
• Huge weapons don't increase damage, a giant with ST25 still does *2 cut + damage with a long axe, but his long axe will weight more than 30 pounds, if he tried to use a human long axe, it would be considered a hatchet, not a long axe, also, weapons still have max damage.
• I'm thinking of combining polearm and staff skills, but I'm not sure yet.
• Tip Slash does half the damage of a thrust, but the damage is cut ++.
• Polearms are pricier, mainly the scythe that had a cost of only $15.
• I want to make long fencing weapons poorer at parry in comparison to short fencing weapons, but don't know how, any tips appreciated.
• If a rule gave +1 damage, translate that into *1.2, if it gave -1, translate that into /1.2
• I don't know yet about edge protection

File with the tables(Revised at 10/23/2013):
http://www.2shared.com/document/z5bs...ns_Table.html?

[simply Nathan]

I appreciate rolling the Shortsword and Broadsword skills into just Sword. Also:

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

*The formula for damage is ST*Multiplier/10=X, where X is number of dices, so, someone with ST15 and a Long Axe(*2 cut +) does 3d cut +.

The math for this is still the hardest part for me to wrap my head around.

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Staff: You still have a good damage and a good parry, but not both at the same time.

Thank you, I appreciate this change greatly. I was going to say the same thing about the Parry bonus and the 2-hex Reach, probably thinking the same reason.

[Landwalker]

Just at a very quick glance, it appears that you got rid of the Longsword as it is called in the RAW and instead gave that name to the Thrusting Bastard Sword (I was very confused at first when I saw that "Longsword" had better swinging damage than a basic broadsword considering its lightness, but then saw that it has the Parry U and 5-pound weight of a bastard sword). Is there any particular reason that the "RAW Longsword" didn't make the cut for the document?


Edit: Additional Question — What method did you use to assign the damages for each weapon? Was there some sort of formula / guidelines you went by, or was it just an eyeballing / personal judgment call approach?

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Kenneth Latrans

The math for this is still the hardest part for me to wrap my head around.

A way to simplify it is use Striking ST/10 * multiplier.
So, Joe Average ST is 10, using a broadsword with *1, he'll do 1d of damage.
If he thrusts instead(*1.5), it becomes 1d+2.

Originally Posted by Landwalker

Just at a very quick glance, it appears that you got rid of the Longsword as it is called in the RAW and instead gave that name to the Thrusting Bastard Sword (I was very confused at first when I saw that "Longsword" had better swinging damage than a basic broadsword considering its lightness, but then saw that it has the Parry U and 5-pound weight of a bastard sword). Is there any particular reason that the "RAW Longsword" didn't make the cut for the document?

Yes, it is at the boring huge text. Partly it is because they are similar weapons, I could divide them, but I had a hard time figuring what the damage of both should be.
The other part is because on portuguese, broadsword is "espada longa", longsword is also "espada longa", and I couldn't have 2 weapons with the same name.
If anyone can give me stats for both, I would change them on the table.

[Landwalker]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Yes, it is at the boring huge text.

Ah, so it is. My apologies.

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

If a rule gave +1 damage, translate that into *1.2, if it gave -1, translate that into /1.2

Can you give an example, just to see the math in action?

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

I want to make long fencing weapons poorer at parry in comparison to short fencing weapons, but don't know how, any tips appreciated.

Why would longer fencing weapons, which have more parrying surface, be worse at parrying? If the rationale is that they're heavier, then I don't think that penalizing their parry relative to lighter weapons is necessarily the right way to go (since you could then make the same argument for a knife being better at parrying than a broadsword). I'd prefer to use the Matter of Inches rule from MA.110 — there's no difference in parrying, but lighter fencing weapons (and smallswords in particular) have the edge when it comes to making and resisting feints. This gives the lighter weapons a one- or two-point advantage in any combat that is feint-heavy... which has the indirect effect of improving their parry ability against attacks the follow a feint (and also improves their attacks when made immediately after making a feint).

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Landwalker

Can you give an example, just to see the math in action?

So, let's say a guy wants a halberd, but a Reach 2, 3 one, that does more damage.
A halberd is *2 cut+ + or *3 imp.
A longer handle would give +1 reach and +1 damage.
So, you simply multiply both damages by 1.2
The final answer is that this halberd would do *2.4 cutting or *3.6 imp.

Example 2: Another guy is using a broadsword in reverse grip. The broadsword is *1 cut++ and *1.5 imp.
Reverse grip gives +1 damage, that means *1.5*1.2, or *1.8 imp.
But for cutting it gives -1/die, you could rule it as simply -1/die, but if he always uses like that and wants the stats that way, it would be *0.7, *1*0.7 means *0.7 cut++

Originally Posted by Landwalker

Why would longer fencing weapons, which have more parrying surface, be worse at parrying? If the rationale is that they're heavier, then I don't think that penalizing their parry relative to lighter weapons is necessarily the right way to go (since you could then make the same argument for a knife being better at parrying than a broadsword). I'd prefer to use the Matter of Inches rule from MA.110 — there's no difference in parrying, but lighter fencing weapons (and smallswords in particular) have the edge when it comes to making and resisting feints. This gives the lighter weapons a one- or two-point advantage in any combat that is feint-heavy... which has the indirect effect of improving their parry ability against attacks the follow a feint (and also improves their attacks when made immediately after making a feint).

Because Martial Arts say so:

RAPIER (pp. 227, 229, B273; illustration, p. 219) – Europe. A long, one-handed sword with a stiff, narrow blade built for stabbing (but not for parrying – rapierists often carried a secondary weapon or a cloak for defense).

The problem with the rapier isn't weight, it's momentum/size.

[tbone]

Interesting (and very detailed) system. Setting aside the damage system (which would take some time to digest), I like some of the more general simplifications, like wrapping Shortsword and Broadsword into one skill, and unifying axes & throwing axes into one throwable weapon (with a simple footnote for anyone wanting a non-throwable model). Plus – my favorite – dropping crushing swords from the table. (Those oddball listings are really unnecessary on GURPS' weapons tables; like you, I've always thought a simple footnote, "a sword may be made point-less for -$X", is more than enough. [Has any player actually ever said "yes, I'd like a blunt-tipped sword"?])

One question about that damage, though: Are the damage multipliers set by fiat? Or are they calculated from some inputs in a subsystem that I'm missing?

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by tbone

[Has any player actually ever said "yes, I'd like a blunt-tipped sword"?])

The closest example I had was when a player wanted a broadsword, bought the first item on the list, and didn't saw that it was GdP+1 cr, and then later said: I thrust to the vitals, then, we had a discussion because I said he can't hit vitals with a crushing weapon, and he saying that a broadsword by default has a pointy end.

Originally Posted by tbone

One question about that damage, though: Are the damage multipliers set by fiat? Or are they calculated from some inputs in a subsystem that I'm missing?

Basics are:
One handed weapons are *1.5. Two Handed ones are *2.
Any weapon can have a +, but this multiplies damage by *0.8. The more +, the worst the weapon is at going through armor.
Unbalanced weapons multiply damage by *1.25.
If it may get stuck, it is another *1.2.
The smaller cousin of a weapon get's damage multiplied by *0.8.
Curved swords algo get their thrust damage multiplied by *0.8, but are cheaper.
Some results were adjusted, rounded etc...

So, for example, a Broadsword starts with *1.5, but it is very bad against armor, so, it get's "++", and damage is multiplied by *0.8². The result is *0.96, rounded up to *1. Thrusting with a broadsword is not so bad, and, as such, they keep the *1.5.

An axe is a blade, and as such, is not the best weapon against armor, but is better than a sword. so, it get's one "+", but, it's also unbalanced, increasing damage, *0.8 cancels *1.25, and as such, axes are *1.5 +. The small axe is the little cousin of the axe, his damage is multiplied by *0.8, the result is *1.2 +.

A (dueling)halberd got a thrusting attack like a spear, one like a pick, and a cutting attack like an axe.
The base damage for a two handed weapon is *2. That's what the spear-like attack have.
The cutting damage for it follows the same reasoning as an axe. So, it's *2+.
The pick-like damage is *1.25 for being unbalanced and *1.2 for getting stuck, the final result is *3.


Some weapons got edited, for example, the great sword should do *1.28, yet, it does *1.4, part because of the Conan feel, part because it gotta have a bigger difference with the bastard sword. Another example is bad engineered weapons, like some "monk" polearms.

[phayman53]

Looks great! I played around with trying to make the damage from LT weapons work more realistically when compared to armor, but I tried changing the way thr and sw damage scaled with strength and then dealt with weapons multipliers after that. The problem was that each additional +1 to ST did not do enough to be worth 10 pts, some levels did not seem to do anything at all. This is a much more direct way to deal with the problem, though it looks like it took a lot of work!

One thing I found on a brief glance through your table is that the Long Knife under the sword skill has reach C,1 or C, but under knife skill it has C,1 or C,1. Was this intentional, or just a typo?

A question I had was whether or not you think someone should suse the cutting weapons do bludgeoning damage against armor optional rule from LT with your new system (cutting weapons will only do their +, ++, etc. wounding if it deals more than twice the DR in damage)?

Also, could you clarify the lance rules where you say "use the RIDER ST/HP". Does that slash mean either the ST or the HP, or is it a division symbol? And if it is division, what does that mean?

Finally, any way that you could re-release the pdf in alphabetical order by skill, as it stands it is sometimes hard to find each category because they are not in alphabetical order? Also, could you put your rounding table from your post in it?

Thanks and great job!

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by phayman53

Looks great! I played around with trying to make the damage from LT weapons work more realistically when compared to armor, but I tried changing the way thr and sw damage scaled with strength and then dealt with weapons multipliers after that. The problem was that each additional +1 to ST did not do enough to be worth 10 pts, some levels did not seem to do anything at all. This is a much more direct way to deal with the problem, though it looks like it took a lot of work!

Thanks :D

Some, however, I have the free time at my job, and GURPS is fun, not work.

Originally Posted by phayman53

One thing I found on a brief glance through your table is that the Long Knife under the sword skill has reach C,1 or C, but under knife skill it has C,1 or C,1. Was this intentional, or just a typo?

Typo, it should be C, 1 / C.

Originally Posted by phayman53

A question I had was whether or not you think someone should suse the cutting weapons do bludgeoning damage against armor optional rule from LT with your new system (cutting weapons will only do their +, ++, etc. wounding if it deals more than twice the DR in damage)?

I tested in my game, keeping the multiplier always is not a problem, however, for added realism you can negate the multiplier as per low tech, but almost no one tries a blade against DR.(A broadsword needs ST15 to do the same damage with cutting as it does thrusting against DR3).

Originally Posted by phayman53

Also, could you clarify the lance rules where you say "use the RIDER ST/HP". Does that slash mean either the ST or the HP, or is it a division symbol? And if it is division, what does that mean?

ST or HP, what matters is the rider's weight, not horse strength. At least that's what Dan Howard said.
In retrospect, you should use only HP, don't know why I put ST together.

Originally Posted by phayman53

Finally, any way that you could re-release the pdf in alphabetical order by skill, as it stands it is sometimes hard to find each category because they are not in alphabetical order? Also, could you put your rounding table from your post in it?

I'll do that, It's actually translated from portuguese, the language we use on our games.

Originally Posted by phayman53

Thanks and great job!

You're welcome