context needed to use (and thus train/better) certain default skills like Religios

[malloyd]

Jesus is probably not a great model for somebody founding a religion these days. Partly because any information is so filtered through later followers, but also because he lived in a world where surviving a snakebite was all you needed to do to be worshiped as a God. That's actually Biblical, Acts 28:6 has the people of Malta deify Paul for it - modern audiences seem more skeptical, at least en masse.

You should probably look at people who have actually tried it in the last few centuries. And yeah, miracles don't seem to help a lot - the LDS or the Sathya Sai Organization have plenty of stories of miracles worked by their founders and yet don't seem to have gained massive followings from them.

[Hide]

Originally Posted by Michele

(...) I'd like to mention that faith is an in-built factor for the Exorcism skill under the rules (...)

Indeed, so I would say that studying the rituals improves the Exorcism skill, and by covering the requisites you have mentioned, you improve the effectiveness.

So, you could expand Exorcism using GURPS Divine Favor System. For example, you could even create entities that have “anti-favor”, making exorcisms harder because you need more Magic or FP, etc. Then, by doing meditation, praying and so on (which are acts of Faith) you get FP, Magic or Divine Favors to boost the ritual.

Originally Posted by Gumby Bush

(...) The idea that Jesus was limited by the lack of faith of others is one I would oppose on theological grounds (...)

If this refers to what I previously wrote, what I wanted to say is that maybe Jesus required a miracle to escape death, and maybe it depended on humans.

Humans have the power to do miracles in behalf of God (as Moses did, for example) but at the time of “the Passion” the disciples’ Faith was “low” (so to say). And then, the possibility of finding an “alternate ending” was blocked. In mundane terms maybe if the disciples were awake and praying with Jesus, perhaps they could have noticed the mass of angry people coming after them and have escaped. In that sense, you could argue the miracle of saving Jesus would have been figurative, "the action of 'resisting the sleep and praying with Jesus right before the Passion' triggered the miracle of changing Jesus’ 'destiny of crucifixion'”.

In GURPS terms, maybe there was a limited version of Destiny disadvantage; it could have been impeded by an act of Faith from humans.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Plane referred to the trinity, which seems to point at relying on the theological definitions rather than on the actually documented feats.

That's just talking about establishing power levels for sensing/doing things, being literal w/ descriptions of being a linked/shared being wouldn't be that hard. I always get confused about trinity stuff since there seems moments of separation contrast, maybe "we are one" or whatever was stated referred to some kind of Mindlink for easy Telepathy or even a Compartmentalized Mind? You prob wouldn't "why has thou" if there was shared consciousness/memory/knowledge 100% of time.

Originally Posted by Michele

faith is an in-built factor for the Exorcism skill under the rules. If you have no True Faith (and/or any of the two similar advantages, Blessed and Power Investiture), you automatically are at a significant handicap, -4 (see p. B193).

Power Investiture makes me wonder: would you get to ignore that penalty in a No Sanctity area?

[Hide]

Originally Posted by Plane;2354894)

(...) Power Investiture makes me wonder: would you get to ignore that penalty in a No Sanctity area?

It depends on how you conceive the advantage in your setting; if you manage it like magery it could be nullified in a “no ‘your power’ zone”. But IMO, some religions would claim their Faith has the “invulnerable to nullification” cosmic modifier.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by Plane

Power Investiture makes me wonder: would you get to ignore that penalty in a No Sanctity area?

I don't think so, rather the opposite - if it means your Power Investiture is temporarily denied. If being in a No Sanctity area makes you powerless, i.e. denies your Power Investiture, then you are without Power Investiture for the purpose of the exorcism. Which means that you do suffer from the -4 penalty for not having said Advantage.

However, I wouldn't say that being in a No Sanctity area has effect on the Advantage per se, but rather on the spell-casting side capability granted by that Advantage. You cannot cast clerical magic spells while you are in the temple of an opposing deity, true, but Exorcism is not a spell, it's a skill.

Naturally, it is likely that if you are trying to expel a demon while you are in the demon lord's temple, you might not suffer from that penalty... but the demon will have a bonus to its Will for being in that place!

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Plane

spending bonus CP to improve skills generally requires that you used them or observed someone using them

That probably requires some kind of CONTEXT for using them... like for example you can't appreciably "use" your Pistol skill if you don't have a pistol on-hand to train with, right?

B193's Exorcism OTOH probably actually requires someone who is possessed to actually use the skill... so to "train" it under controlled situations might require a friendly spirit who is willing to cooperate with you to "spar" and allow you to train your exorcism?

This makes me wonder about the practical limits of self-study and book-learning. You could of course read books on how to perform exorcisms, or books on how to shoot pistols... but at some point if you're purely relying on books but not actually getting your hands dirty, it makes me wonder just how high you could actually train up those skills based on just theory / instruction and not "I'm actually fighting a spirit" or "I'm actually holding a gun".

on that note: does anyone know the crunch effect of "relative effectiveness depends on the originating culture of the spirit." ? Using it at defaults to Will/Thaumatology don't have specialization like the defaults to Ritual Magic or Religious Ritual or Theology... does using default from one of latter give some kind of bonus? or do you need a Blessed/TrueFaith/PowerInvestiture SPECIFIC to a spirit to avoid the -4 rather than any form of it avoiding penalty for all spirits?

Ritual Magic (B218) is one of those things that doesn't default to an attribute so you can't spontaneously use it... but it does default to Religious Ritual (B217)... that too lacks an attribute default ... but defaults to Theology (B225) which finally DOES have an IQ default.

Using things at default which require specialization gets me thinking though... you can only "use" the default skill (even though defaults aren't specialized .. or arguably you have a default in INFINITE specializations?) in a specialized way...

But to actually use it, you'd probably have to encounter the religion externally, right? Like "I need a gun to practise my shooting skill" practically, you would need a holy text, a holy building, a holy person, etc. to use/study a Theology specialization?

Theology (Comparative) would then seem like the easiest thing to practice since ANY use of it might count? Or should it only count in situations where you're trying to figure out connections between religions?

Comparative is limited to "religion routinely studied by scholars in your game world" when deciding what other specializations of theology default to it...

Which makes me wonder... rather than ALL specializations defaulting to IQ, would it be more realistic to just allow Theology (Comparative) to default to IQ?

This would give people an "in" to using religion (general comparative usage to well known religions in their world, basically related to Cultural Familiarity) but until they actually put a point in Comparative maybe they shouldn't be able to have "default skill" in Specialized Theology apart from Comparative?

Comparative seems like the best approximation of 'general knowledge' which would exclude alien religions...

and it seems strange like someone who is very good at this (still getting no default whatsoever in "not routinely studied by my world's scholars" stuff) would be on equal footing with someone who hasn't studied ANY kind of theology (pure IQ defaults).

I think the idea for me would be that you could use "studied theology" as a bridge to learn "unstudied theology" by using a gradual progression of defaulting relationships.

like say someone eventually wanted to learn about Aztec, they might go:
Comparative > Protestantism > Roman Catholicism > Aztec/Catholic Syncretism > Aztec

It seems strange after all that you would just inherently know about any religion whatsoever. Skill rolls usually represent some kind of knowledge about something, which you just wouldn't have of some alien religion you never heard of.

This would also add a realistic "extra step" to learning "Religious Ritual" and thus "Ritual Magic": a point in Comparative Theology, a point in Specialized Theology, a point in Specialized Religious Ritual, and a point in Specialized Ritual Magic.

Another idea for "default" use of Theology: could that just be used to make a new religion? Like since there's in theory infinite uses, could you "study" a religion of your own invention?

That would seem like what a deity or it's initial allotment of supernatural servants (angels, demonsetc) or worshippers/priests might need to do, because prior to actually forming a church/cult there would not actually be that arrangement of beliefs to be the basis of a skill.

Kind of like with B200 "Hobby Skill". At some point nobody had "Hobby Skill: Poker" because Poker did not exist until it was made. So how do you actually invent a new specialization of a skill and learn it?

Unlike traditional rules (you must use the skill) can you even use something which doesn't exist yet?

One thing you did not mention is that religion is a kind of savoire-faire. Knowing the theology gives points when seeking favor with an authority who happens to be religious.

Reuven Malter is invited to Rebbe Saunders house to for the great Rebbe to see whether or not his son's friend really is a heretic who might as well be a goy. Reuven watches the father and son do Talmudic sparing and manages to prove himself when the subject of numerology comes up and he happens to be good at math.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

One thing you did not mention is that religion is a kind of savoire-faire. Knowing the theology gives points when seeking favor with an authority who happens to be religious.

Sorry, but while that is true I don't think it's peculiar for Theology.

The authority receives my character in his fencing hall, because he happens to love fencing. That's fortunate, because the PC is a fencer. The PC manages to drop some insightful remark about the smallsword in the authority's hand (which the PC can do because he has Smallsword-16), and the GM rightly decides the ensuing Reaction Roll gets a +1 bonus for that.

It's essentially the Connoisseur skill's bonus. Talents also have a similar effect on like-minded people, etc.