[SE] Selling fish to a fisherman

[weby]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Well, there's a problem:
Even with Social Engineering, there isn't all that much crunch to social influence. Everything boils down to 'apply modifier for all the appropriate factors, then roll Contests untill the outcome becomes clear'. Crunch that spices up combat - equipment, map positioning, number of attacks and differences between various defences - don't apply to social combat, for good or ill. (Game systems such as Exalted tried, but the result is far from perfect.)

There is actually a fair amount of the extra you can easily introduce, though getting to the level of normal Gurps combat is... very hard.

Basically my solution has been to make some of the requirements so high(huge penalties) that the PCs have had to try to find ways to reduce the penalties and to get bonuses. In different situations that has included things like:
-academic research on topics related to the action
-starting of separate rumor campaigns to make the initial actual approach easier
-burglary to plant incriminating evidence on a rival
-collecting rumors on what a target likes
-finding extremely rare items that the target has been looking for a long time
-using several complimentary skills, like applying disguises to seem part of a more acceptable group.
-and many many more

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by whswhs

On the other hand, the rules in SE do provide for some tradeoffs in trying to gain another character's Loyalty through regular contests. Do you, for example, make an immediate appeal, or spend a month talking with them? If your appeal fails, do you try again right away, or take more time? And if you wait, will someone else get in first?

It's nowhere near the same level quantitatively, but this is one of the things that I consider good about SE. It's just that I'd like more of such good stuff (well, hypothetically as a player; the GMs in whose campaigns I play don't go even that deep into social mechanics even in GURPS).

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by weby

There is actually a fair amount of the extra you can easily introduce, though getting to the level of normal Gurps combat is... very hard.

Basically my solution has been to make some of the requirements so high(huge penalties) that the PCs have had to try to find ways to reduce the penalties and to get bonuses. In different situations that has included things like:
-academic research on topics related to the action
-starting of separate rumor campaigns to make the initial actual approach easier
-burglary to plant incriminating evidence on a rival
-collecting rumors on what a target likes
-finding extremely rare items that the target has been looking for a long time
-using several complimentary skills, like applying disguises to seem part of a more acceptable group.
-and many many more

Well, yes, those things add variety. But they're qualitatively different. Simply put, they're like going on a quest to find a magical sword that happens to be the vulnerability of someone with Supernatural Durability. Or similar logistical preparations.

But once that phase is over, the tactical situation is relatively 'flat'.

Another consideration is that, much like the quest for a magical sword, what you describe seems to rely very heavily on fiat and eyeballing. That is, to a large extent, the result of the way Fixed Reactions work: simply put, there is no game-mechanical correlations between a character's traits and said character's ability to say "Nope, no matter what, I won't react better than Poor to the PCs".

[starslayer]

And don't forget, impossible penalties stack.

Under extreme stress -10
Need to work in 0 time -10
Impossible level of convincing -10
Against morality of person you are trying to influence -10
Need to convince the person to put themselves on harms easy -10

All in all convincing the headsman to spare you looks like a -40 or more roll.

[Gigermann]

Originally Posted by starslayer

And don't forget, impossible penalties stack.

Under extreme stress -10
Need to work in 0 time -10
Impossible level of convincing -10
Against morality of person you are trying to influence -10
Need to convince the person to put themselves on harms easy -10

All in all convincing the headsman to spare you looks like a -40 or more roll.

Where did those come from? They aren't familiar to me.