Curious about why Acute Hearing 4 is the max

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by BraselC5048

On the "can you possibly hear it" front, considering High Tech's hearing table treats the listed range as "no modifier," I'd say that if the total hearing penalties after the acute hearing bonus is -8 or more, then you can't hear it. (The equivalent of needing to roll a 2 or less for Per 10.) If not, then make a perception roll with acute hearing and all penalties.

So, for example, Per 14 with Acute Hearing 4 can hear something at the limit of hearing 50% of the time, but anything quieter he can never hear. I'm not sure that's a bad thing, actually, come to think of it. So Per 13 with Acute Hearing 2 is the same as Per 15 most of the time, but Per 15 can only hear something with base penalties of -7, but Per 13 with acute hearing can handle up to -9. If both can hear it, the odds are the same, but the one with Acute hearing can get to roll at all for quieter sounds.

Come to think of it, I might apply that to all sense rolls. At least when it's a case of "can you see/hear it at all," which would be pretty rare, actually.


I think we can agree that High Tech's hearing table has a decent basic idea, but has issues in practice. The two main issues are "can I hear (fill in the blank) at background noise of (fill in the blank)," and adding sounds of a known decibel level at a given distance to the table. I'm pretty much stuck for ideas on how to do that, - a bigger sound loudness difference produces a bigger number, and how the heck do you treat background noise?

The idea of going by total modifier as opposed to by modified number-to-be-rolled causes a sudden drop in case of above-average Per. You seem to have noticed it yourself. So to someone with a hearing score of 17 (Per 13, Acute Hearing 4), a -12 sound suddenly behaves as a -15 one. You're basically penalising a player for picking a character with an above-average attribute; that's broken.

[BraselC5048]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

The idea of going by total modifier as opposed to by modified number-to-be-rolled causes a sudden drop in case of above-average Per. You seem to have noticed it yourself. So to someone with a hearing score of 17 (Per 13, Acute Hearing 4), a -12 sound suddenly behaves as a -15 one. You're basically penalising a player for picking a character with an above-average attribute; that's broken.

You know what, I think you're right. Even if I did adopt the rule, which I don't think I will, it wound only apply in cases where the issue is whether it's possible to hear it at all, not whether your character hears it, which I suppose wouldn't come up often - or maybe it might. Yah, though, I think I can drop that rule.

Now let's see what we can do about improving High Tech's hearing table. Anybody got a brilliant idea of a way to see the penalty of hearing (fill in the blank) over the background noise of (fill in the blank), or just a better way of incorporating background noise in the first place?

Also, how would a noise that's 10 Db at 3 meters factor into the table? And what would be a good penalty for an intervening wall?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by BraselC5048

Now let's see what we can do about improving High Tech's hearing table.

Start by tossing it in the trash bin and using regular range/speed modifiers, or even something more severe; a sound you're 50% (10-) to hear at 2 yards is not 25% (8-) at 8 yards, it's pretty much inaudible. I'd probably go with something like:
Base Sound Signature: (dB - 50) * 0.3, based on dB at 2 yards. Range modifiers apply normally.
Background Noise: -(dB - 50) * 0.3; halved if dB < 50.

Thus, at 50+ dB, you are always +0 to hear a sound that is at the same level as background noise.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Ashtagon

I believe Kromm once noted that ability scores higher than 13 are unrealistic anyway.

Not exactly. You're probably thinking of this comment:

Originally Posted by Kromm

No, it doesn't. I quote:

Note the part in bold. Not "most realistic characters" or "most humans" or anything like that, but "most characters." In an RPG, most characters are action-movie commandos, angels, anime people, cinematic martial artists, demons, dwarves, elves, larger-than-life fantasy heroes, supers, vampires, Vulcans, etc. Those aren't realistic humans. They can indeed have almost any score between 1 and 20, although only the godlike ones can have 21+. And it's certainly quite possible to be an anime magical girl or a super soldier or a vampire without being godlike.

The only comment there about normal humans puts their scores in the 8-12 range. This is backed up by the nearby box.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...5&postcount=30

But Kromm certainly accepts attribute scores above 12 for normal humans (even if they're not "most" normal humans).

Originally Posted by Kromm

I wouldn't stop HT at an effective 12 with bonuses from Fit/Very Fit in any kind of realistic campaign. I understand the desire not to have unstoppable psychos as PCs, but -5×HP stops any normal person dead, and isn't very hard to achieve with weapons of war (even for a beefy ST/HP 12 guy, that's 72 HP of injury, which is roughly the average result of a 7.62×51mm round through the ticker). Boxers make a career of absorbing repeated head blows without knockdown. I'd probably go for effective HT 16 before arching an eyebrow.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=1467516

In a thread discussing rating actual people in the real world:

Originally Posted by Kromm

* Most people have ST, DX, IQ, HT, Will, and Per at 10; a Basic Speed of 5.00; and a Basic Move of 5.

* If an ordinary Joe is stronger, more agile, smarter, healthier, stronger-willed, or more perceptive than average, odds are good that he has an 11 instead of a 10. If his edge is so great that his friends talk about it, he might rate a 13. People in the middle are at 12.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=15401

So even "ordinary Joes" can make it up to 13 in our real world without a touch of supernatural power, which level is just remarkable enough that their friends talk about it. This still leaves headroom above 13 for people that become truly famous -- everyone talks about them, and remembers them for their attribute, perhaps for decades. These are the people the friends of the Club of 13 are comparing their unusual friend to when debating whether he's all that special.

"Most" normals is not "all" normals. "Normal" is not a synonym for "realistic". 21+ gets the label "godlike". 13-20 is not godlike, certainly acceptable for unusual people like PCs, as well as extraordinary and even supernatural types that fall short of godhood. And of course the further up that scale you go, the more and more remarkable it gets.

Kromm's list of examples of "not realistic humans" that fall in to the 13-20 range can be read as excluding realistic humans. But that interpretation mistakes the extreme examples used to make a point for the whole, and also contradicts other comments for exceptional yet realistic humans that Kromm's made elsewhere. There's not a bright line of realism drawn between 12 and 13.

[BraselC5048]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Start by tossing it in the trash bin and using regular range/speed modifiers, or even something more severe; a sound you're 50% (10-) to hear at 2 yards is not 25% (8-) at 8 yards, it's pretty much inaudible. I'd probably go with something like:
Base Sound Signature: (dB - 50) * 0.3, based on dB at 2 yards. Range modifiers apply normally.
Background Noise: -(dB - 50) * 0.3; halved if dB < 50.

Thus, at 50+ dB, you are always +0 to hear a sound that is at the same level as background noise.

OK, I'll tableize that, using some numbers I found that include several ambient sound levels.

Background Noise

description Decibels penalty
Rustling of leaves 20 +4 to +5
Quiet theatre, no talking 30 +3
Residential area at night 40 +1 to +2
Inside a quiet restaurant 50 +0
Inside an office or restaurant 60 -3 (?)
Busy traffic (at 5 yards) 70 -6
Vacuum cleaner, curbside of 80 -9
a busy street
Loud factory, heavy truck (1 yard) 90 -12
Jackhammer, disco* 100 -15
accelerating motorcycle 110 -18
(at 5 yards), chainsaw
Rock concert, 120 -21
jet takeoff at 100 yards

Ok, seems to me the penalties are too steep. I'd halve them above 50 Db as well.

Loud noises (from High Tech):
Conversation, cocking or reloading 60 +3
firearm, attaching bayonet

Bow, loud conversation 80 +9
Crossbow, shouting, car 90 +12
Air gun, firearm firing “silent” 100 +15
ammo, revving gas engine
Diesel engine, motorcycle, car horn 110 +18
Chainsaw, oxygen torch 120 +21
.22 LR, musket 130 +21
Light pistol, (.32 or .380 ACP), 140 +24
grenade launcher
Heavy pistol (9mm, .45 ACP), 150 +27
SMG, rifle, shotgun
Magnum rifle, HMG, stun grenade 160 +30.

Humm, looks like it needs some work (no, you can't hear a HMG at 100 miles at +0).

Maybe use 0.2 instead of 0.3?

*I think the source might be a little dated.

[BraselC5048]

OK, using 0.2 instead of 0.3 and multiplying background noise penalties by 0.75 above 50 Db, here's another go.

Background Noise

description Decibels penalty
Rustling of leaves 20 +3
Quiet theatre, no talking 30 +2
Residential area at night 40 +1
Inside a quiet restaurant 50 +0
Inside an office or restaurant 60 -1 to -2
Busy traffic (at 5 yards) 70 -3
Vacuum cleaner, curbside of 80 -4 to -5
a busy street
Loud factory, heavy truck (1 yard) 90 -6
Jackhammer, disco* 100 -7 to -8
accelerating motorcycle 110 -9
(at 5 yards), chainsaw
Rock concert, 120 -10 to -11
jet takeoff at 100 yards

Loud noises (from High Tech):
Conversation, cocking or reloading 60 +2 (personally I would use +3 on this line only)
firearm, attaching bayonet
Bow, loud conversation 80 +6
Crossbow, shouting, car 90 +8
Air gun, firearm firing “silent” 100 +10
ammo, revving gas engine
Diesel engine, motorcycle, car horn 110 +12
Chainsaw, oxygen torch 120 +14
.22 LR, musket 130 +16
Light pistol, (.32 or .380 ACP), 140 +18
grenade launcher
Heavy pistol (9mm, .45 ACP), 150 +20
SMG, rifle, shotgun
Magnum rifle, HMG, stun grenade 160 +22

That seems to work better. It also fixes the sort of bug of a gun with a -5 silencer being quieter, as a practical matter, then a gun firing silent ammunition. (Assuming that's not intentional, of course.)

Anybody know some good penalties for having walls in the way? Perhaps -1 for a window (or a wall with a normal amount of windows), -2 for an ordinary TL 8 wood residential wall (and doors), and maybe -5? for a masonry or concrete wall.