Human max for secondary attributes? (Per, will, FP)

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

There's probably a gap between the maximum you can 100% reliably make with engineering, and the maximum which can be achieved when everything lines up just right.

BTW, anyone tried comparing modifiers with objects that are easier to measure? I mean, the resolution required to identify the details from which letters are made.

My screen is 450mm away from me.
The width of the letter Q (and many others) is about 2mm at the current font and resolution (measured yesterday).
The difference between г and ґ or Q and O is roughly ½mm (give or take).
A roughly ½mm target at a distance of roughly 450mm is about -17 or -18.

Source for GURPS working that way? You're taking the difference between the letters in size to be the size modifier for identifying them. As far as I can see, the SM modifier for identifying a person is SM0 even thought the features of the face are much smaller than that.

2mm letter size (-17SM) , 450mm distance* (-0), Plain Sight (+10), Contrast** (+1 to +3), Silhouetted*** (+24)

Total +18 to +20

Reliably seeing something with a +18 to +20 doesn't strike me as strange.

*You sit really close to you screen, I'm at 900mm!!!
**"Contrast provides +1 to +3 for moderate to high contrast between objects and background."
Mysteries Page 47.
***"In Space: +2 if the object is silhouetted against a larger celestial body, +24 if silhouetted against deep space. Note that this is cumulative with the plain sight modifier."
Spaceships 1, page 44.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Source for GURPS working that way? You're taking the difference between the letters in size to be the size modifier for identifying them. As far as I can see, the SM modifier for identifying a person is SM0 even thought the features of the face are much smaller than that.

If you can't see it, you can't analyse it for identification. If you can't see the little hook on ґ, you can't tell it isn't a г.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

2mm letter size (-17SM) , 450mm distance* (-0), Plain Sight (+10), Contrast** (+1 to +3), Silhouetted*** (+24)

Total +18 to +20

Reliably seeing something with a +18 to +20 doesn't strike me as strange.

*You sit really close to you screen, I'm at 900mm!!!

It's a laptop, keeping it further would be inconvenient arm-wise anyway. At least 45cm was roughly the distance when I measured it yesterday. I suppose it might be slightly more at a desk, but still not the full 90cm.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

**"Contrast provides +1 to +3 for moderate to high contrast between objects and background."
Mysteries Page 47.

I'm not sure SJGames' colour scheme is all that contrasting, but OK, maybe it is.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

***"In Space: +2 if the object is silhouetted against a larger celestial body, +24 if silhouetted against deep space. Note that this is cumulative with the plain sight modifier."
Spaceships 1, page 44.

You're applying the modifier that is intended for hyperspectral sensors ('They usually operate in infrared mode') seeing 300K+ objects silhouetted against a 3K-ish background. Even the +2 against a larger celestial body is dubious for discerning flat detail on a screen.

If seeing usual objects in terrestrial conditions were meant to be that easy, the +10 for Plain Sight would be listed along with a silhouette bonus. +24 is just too significant to be left unmentioned!

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

You're applying the modifier that is intended for hyperspectral sensors ('They usually operate in infrared mode') seeing 300K+ objects silhouetted against a 3K-ish background.

It's not the modifier for IR signature, that's listed below it.

In Space: +2 if the object is silhouetted against a larger celestial body, +24 if silhouetted against deep space. Note that this is cumulative with the plain sight modifier.

IR Signature: Spacecraft often put out a lot of heat and light! If trying to detect a spacecraft or similar object, apply the single highest applicable modifier:
Minimal power: 0*.
Auxiliary power: +3.
Fuel cell, solar panels, or jet engine: +4
MHD turbine, chemical or HEDM rocket engine, or flying in atmosphere at 3,600+ mph: +5
Fission reactor, nuclear thermal rocket, nuclear light bulb, or performing a high-speed atmospheric reentry: +6.
Antimatter thermal rocket engine, antimatter reactor, fusion reactor, super fusion reactor, total conversion reactor, magsail, lightsail: +7.
Fusion pulse drive or fusion rocket engine: +8.
Advanced fusion pulse, antimatter plasma, nuclear saltwater rocket, or external pulsed plasma engine: +9.
Antimatter plasma torch, antimatter pion, or fusion torch engine: +10.
Antimatter pion torch, super antimatter plasma torch, or total conversion torch engine: +11.
Super conversion torch engine, or any “cosmic” power plant: +12.
Reaction engine modifiers assume the rear hull (with drive) is facing toward the sensor array; if it’s the central hull, reduce by one; if it’s the front hull, reduce by two.

* Auxiliary power permits operation of all non-high-energy or cosmic energy systems. Minimal power does not permit the use of any life support (except hibernation chambers), active sensors, or ECM.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

If seeing usual objects in terrestrial conditions were meant to be that easy, the +10 for Plain Sight would be listed along with a silhouette bonus. +24 is just too significant to be left unmentioned!

Loads of things get left until later books, or never at all. How often are things actually silhouetted against a plain background on an adventure?

Anyway we don't need the full +24, +14 would be sufficient.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

I have a question, if you're capping Vision at 12, what happens to Observation? being trained in Observation won't vastly improve your vision and you shouldn't be able to Observe something you can't see.

I use Observation skill when connections/experience/reasoning must be made to notice something. I use Sense rolls when it's only a matter of physiologically detecting stimulus. So, in practice, if they can't realistically see it anyway, they don't get an Observation roll. E.g. I might allow the Vision 14, Observation 8 Andorian to make an Observation roll, but not the Vision 10, Observation 14 Klingon.

Thanks for the max Night Vision info, NineDaysDead. This has been a worthwhile thread.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

It's not the modifier for IR signature, that's listed below it.

In Space: +2 if the object is silhouetted against a larger celestial body, +24 if silhouetted against deep space. Note that this is cumulative with the plain sight modifier.

IR Signature: Spacecraft often put out a lot of heat and light! If trying to detect a spacecraft or similar object, apply the single highest applicable modifier:
Minimal power: 0*.
Auxiliary power: +3.
Fuel cell, solar panels, or jet engine: +4
MHD turbine, chemical or HEDM rocket engine, or flying in atmosphere at 3,600+ mph: +5
Fission reactor, nuclear thermal rocket, nuclear light bulb, or performing a high-speed atmospheric reentry: +6.
Antimatter thermal rocket engine, antimatter reactor, fusion reactor, super fusion reactor, total conversion reactor, magsail, lightsail: +7.
Fusion pulse drive or fusion rocket engine: +8.
Advanced fusion pulse, antimatter plasma, nuclear saltwater rocket, or external pulsed plasma engine: +9.
Antimatter plasma torch, antimatter pion, or fusion torch engine: +10.
Antimatter pion torch, super antimatter plasma torch, or total conversion torch engine: +11.
Super conversion torch engine, or any “cosmic” power plant: +12.
Reaction engine modifiers assume the rear hull (with drive) is facing toward the sensor array; if it’s the central hull, reduce by one; if it’s the front hull, reduce by two.

* Auxiliary power permits operation of all non-high-energy or cosmic energy systems. Minimal power does not permit the use of any life support (except hibernation chambers), active sensors, or ECM.

Notice that these are bonuses for extra heat. Even minimal power allows hybernation chambers, non-active sensors, and the existence of warm-blooded inhabitants aboard (even though with the ship's life support down they'll have a limited time to live). That's still plenty of contrast.

And even in cases where the IR signature is +0, even having hyperspectral vision is still pretty important for the matter of contrasts.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Loads of things get left until later books, or never at all. How often are things actually silhouetted against a plain background on an adventure?

Is the +24 for silhouettes ever repeated anywhere in the context of humanlike characters acting in terrestrial environments? Tactical Shooting says that targets silhouetted against the sky give +1 to Vision rolls, which is indeed in line for Mysteries' +1 to +3, but not for the huge +24 of space.