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Old 08-21-2020, 07:17 AM   #31
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: GURPS ST vs real wold records

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Originally Posted by GWJ View Post
Actually it's opposite :) Muscle mass is more dense than fat tissue, so 5 kg of muscles will have smaller volume than 5 kg of fat. Thus, if we have two 130 kg persons looking almost the same (I mean almost the same volume, shape etc.), the one who have more muscles and less fat, will be the heavier one.
...
No I know muscle is more dense than fat I meant in perception. A lot of body building is making yourself look as big as possible.

Proportions of shoulder to waist play part in this as well, as well as concentrating on upper body and have thinner legs then their upper bodies might suggest. Also removing the fat makes the muscles look bigger more prominent/exaggerated (and thus heavier)

Basically body builders often have their weight over estimated

Sorry not very relevent to what was being discussing which was actual weight not perception of it and yes reading that line back I can see why you thought I was saying fat is heavier than muscle!
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 08-21-2020 at 07:26 AM.
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Old 08-21-2020, 07:29 AM   #32
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: GURPS ST vs real wold records

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Yeah given how hard it is to completely isolate the rest of the body from a lot of lifts, I'd say Lifting ST as less exotic than Arm ST in all but teh most specialised cases
As I have known people who obviously had Arm ST but never anyone who obviously had Lifting ST I have to say that your conclusions are obviously faulty.
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Old 08-21-2020, 07:33 AM   #33
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: GURPS ST vs real wold records

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As I have known people who obviously had Arm ST but never anyone who obviously had Lifting ST I have to say that your conclusions are obviously faulty.
Fair enough, how did they display this extra Arm only ST?

Personally I come across lots of people who I'd say have extra Lifting ST* in GURPS terms. But a lot of this working out where in Real life very specific and distinct GURPS rules begin an end, e.g did someone lift that extra bit of weight because their basic ST score in higher, or do they have a +1 Lift ST, or got an extra MOS in their lifting roll etc, etc



*Or I guess a better way of saying it is they can lift out of proportion to their ability to hit (and vice versa)
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Old 08-21-2020, 08:36 AM   #34
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: GURPS ST vs real wold records

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Fair enough, how did they display this extra Arm only ST?
There's a young lady who bags groceries at my local grocery store. Probably as a result of a birth defect her left arm is non-functional. She does with one arm what other people use two for and her one functional arm shows unusual muscular development.

"Works at my local grocery store" doesn't rate as "exotic" to me.

There are other similar examples of "compensatory development" among he handicapped but Arm ST appears to e quite common among some athletes. Probably every top gymnast has it. They support their entire weight with only their arms in both static and moving situations for significant periods of time.

I've already mentioned the bodybuilders and their overdeveloped arms.

There are reverse cases where older people (probably including myself) have lost more strength from their legs than their arms. In gurps this could be represented by reducing regular ST by say, 2 pts but buying 1 level of Arm ST. It was very obvious durign both physical therapy and regular life that he had little strength in his legs but still had near-normal strength in his arms. It's a fairly common pattern.
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Old 08-21-2020, 09:14 AM   #35
GWJ
 
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Default Re: GURPS ST vs real wold records

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
No I know muscle is more dense than fat I meant in perception. A lot of body building is making yourself look as big as possible.

Proportions of shoulder to waist play part in this as well, as well as concentrating on upper body and have thinner legs then their upper bodies might suggest. Also removing the fat makes the muscles look bigger more prominent/exaggerated (and thus heavier)

Basically body builders often have their weight over estimated

Sorry not very relevent to what was being discussing which was actual weight not perception of it and yes reading that line back I can see why you thought I was saying fat is heavier than muscle!
Hmm I wouldn't say it's about looking as big as possible. There are the standards, and symmetry. Long ago (even before Schwarzenegger) for example it was about the Greek god posture. Veined arms, wide and ball-like shoulders, thin waist, chest looking much more like a Roman Empire cuirasses (instead of women-ish breasts), and sleek ripped legs (instead of monstrous elephant-ish kebabs), and Y/V silhouette, instead of X. Nowadays the standards are different, and so is look of the modern bodybuilders. That's why earlier they rather avoided heavy barbell squats - today it's absolute fundament of leg training. And usually removing the fat makes muscle looks smaller, not bigger :) There a lot of people who are just skinny-fats, and they look like normal builded man, but actually they have minimal muscle mass, and just more fat tissue. Boybuilders do reduction cycles mainly for definition of their muscles, to make every muscle fiber visible to judges. Making their skin oiled and darker is for the same reason. And actually they are looking much bigger before and after the contest, when they are gaining more muscle mass and much more fat tissue - they are freakin' mosters in that time.
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Old 08-21-2020, 09:40 AM   #36
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: GURPS ST vs real wold records

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
There's a young lady who bags groceries at my local grocery store. Probably as a result of a birth defect her left arm is non-functional. She does with one arm what other people use two for and her one functional arm shows unusual muscular development.

"Works at my local grocery store" doesn't rate as "exotic" to me.

;-) No but I'm guessing having a non functioning other arm, that the other compensates for is a bit more so?

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There are other similar examples of "compensatory development" among he handicapped

fair enough although I say it being driven by being handicapped, but it good example

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
but Arm ST appears to e quite common among some athletes. Probably every top gymnast has it. They support their entire weight with only their arms in both static and moving situations for significant periods of time.

That's a good example! If you see those who specialise in the rings you will see it fully.

Either way it seems to be an example of it being trained for right?

I'm willing to also bet that such gymnasts can also lift at higher rates then their in GURPS terms basic ST / striking ST / HP. Some probably have lift ST as well. (some might have both)

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I've already mentioned the bodybuilders and their overdeveloped arms.
well big body builder arms doesn't necessarily mean big lifts

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
There are reverse cases where older people (probably including myself) have lost more strength from their legs than their arms. In gurps this could be represented by reducing regular ST by say, 2 pts but buying 1 level of Arm ST. It was very obvious durign both physical therapy and regular life that he had little strength in his legs but still had near-normal strength in his arms. It's a fairly common pattern.
Is that a fairly normal pattern, I'd say in tended on your activity?
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Old 08-21-2020, 09:41 AM   #37
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: GURPS ST vs real wold records

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Originally Posted by GWJ View Post
Hmm I wouldn't say it's about looking as big as possible. There are the standards, and symmetry. Long ago (even before Schwarzenegger) for example it was about the Greek god posture. Veined arms, wide and ball-like shoulders, thin waist, chest looking much more like a Roman Empire cuirasses (instead of women-ish breasts), and sleek ripped legs (instead of monstrous elephant-ish kebabs), and Y/V silhouette, instead of X. Nowadays the standards are different, and so is look of the modern bodybuilders. That's why earlier they rather avoided heavy barbell squats - today it's absolute fundament of leg training. And usually removing the fat makes muscle looks smaller, not bigger :) There a lot of people who are just skinny-fats, and they look like normal builded man, but actually they have minimal muscle mass, and just more fat tissue. Boybuilders do reduction cycles mainly for definition of their muscles, to make every muscle fiber visible to judges. Making their skin oiled and darker is for the same reason. And actually they are looking much bigger before and after the contest, when they are gaining more muscle mass and much more fat tissue - they are freakin' mosters in that time.
heh, OK I agree with pretty much all of that, which I think means I'm obviously making a right hash her of what I'm trying to say!
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Old 08-21-2020, 11:37 PM   #38
pawsplay
 
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Default Re: GURPS ST vs real wold records

As far as a realistic person with Lifting ST... I used to know someone I think would easily qualify. Certainly he had a high ST, probably at least a 15 to begin with, but his power was just terrifying. He was 6'3", over 300 pounds, and I personally saw him move a dumpster. On more than one occasion, he broke up a fight by grabbing the combatants and lifting them in the air. He was just a force of nature. I would be completely confident in giving him ST 15, Lifting ST 3. He was just built on another scale. But he wasn't what you would call a conditioned athlete, just a big, big guy who enjoyed a little weekend sword-fighting. I saw him lose an arm-wrestling match, once.
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Old 08-21-2020, 11:44 PM   #39
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: GURPS ST vs real wold records

I knew a guy like that as well in the local SCA. He was 5'6", 300 lbs., 15% body fat, and could run a 6 minute mile.
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