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Old 09-02-2017, 11:33 PM   #11
PK
 
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Default Re: striking/lifting ST and weapons

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
Side question; Since Striking ST is used for melee weapons, can I use weapons I can't lift?
No. You have to have enough BL to pick up the weapon in one or two hands, depending on its use.

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
A fairly realistic game wouldn't allow a character to have so much Striking Strength above Lifting.
Do note that Lifting ST and Striking ST are both exotic advantages, and are thus restricted to racial templates in most games. And even the not-at-all-realistic Dungeon Fantasy series allows only up to Lifting ST 3 or Striking ST 2 outside of racial templates (or power-ups that effectively treat Striking ST as a limited-accessibility damage bonus and thus reflect the situation and not the character's muscles).
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Old 09-03-2017, 01:02 AM   #12
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Default Re: striking/lifting ST and weapons

I'm fond of using a sword that brings me to Extra Heavy Encumbrance and a Hideaway/Payload scabbard so that it's weightless when not drawn. Very videogamey, that one.
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Old 09-03-2017, 01:17 AM   #13
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Default Re: striking/lifting ST and weapons

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Originally Posted by PK View Post
No. You have to have enough BL to pick up the weapon in one or two hands, depending on its use.



Do note that Lifting ST and Striking ST are both exotic advantages, and are thus restricted to racial templates in most games. And even the not-at-all-realistic Dungeon Fantasy series allows only up to Lifting ST 3 or Striking ST 2 outside of racial templates (or power-ups that effectively treat Striking ST as a limited-accessibility damage bonus and thus reflect the situation and not the character's muscles).
Though Special Exercises (from MA or PU:Perks) are non-cinematic and allow taking a few levels. Just slightly point-inefficient.
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Old 09-03-2017, 02:03 AM   #14
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Default Re: striking/lifting ST and weapons

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Originally Posted by PK View Post
...
Do note that Lifting ST and Striking ST are both exotic advantages, and are thus restricted to racial templates in most games. And even the not-at-all-realistic Dungeon Fantasy series allows only up to Lifting ST 3 or Striking ST 2 outside of racial templates (or power-ups that effectively treat Striking ST as a limited-accessibility damage bonus and thus reflect the situation and not the character's muscles).
I ignore that as silly. Weight lifting exists and makes people stronger at lifting weights without improving any other aspect of Strength.
But RAW is RAW.
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Old 09-03-2017, 04:35 PM   #15
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Default Re: striking/lifting ST and weapons

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Originally Posted by PK View Post
No. You have to have enough BL to pick up the weapon in one or two hands, depending on its use.
Okay, thanks, I thought so but it wasn't completely clear.
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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Perhaps a compromise might be to say you can do that stunt if you have a Perk: Massive Weapons (if that name hasn't already been used).
I like this idea. It's not exactly unfair if someone can wield a weapon too heavy for them to lift (where are they going to go with it?). It's worse than an Innate Attack with Gadget and Temporary Disad: Sessile. Mind, it is better with specifically thrown weapons because you can get it around from place to place... if slow and tiring.
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Old 09-06-2017, 12:22 AM   #16
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Default Re: striking/lifting ST and weapons

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
What if the skill penalty for having less ST than that required for the weapon was based on the lower of lifting or striking? Seems like both would be important to using a weapon even if damage is based on striking alone for melee/thrown.
You could give it a go.

Ultimately though I think Lifting ST as it stands in the system just isn't a very relevant limiting factor for melee weapon use. And in areas of weapon use were it is used (e.g drawing a bow) are a different enough application of ST from wielding melee weapon to warrant the switch.

A ST10 chap has a one handed lift of 40lb.

A broadsword (in the hand) weighs 2lb* and has a MinST10

Using the scaling rules in LTC2 he could still easily pick up a SM3 up-scaled version as it would weigh 25lbs, well within his one handed lift. But it's MinST stat would be 35 he'd wield it at -25!

Basically MinST and one handed lift (or two handed lift) from BL don't seem to relate to each other much at all. And really picking a weight up (especially as defined by the BL rules) and wielding a weapon effectively are very different things.



*2/3rds of 3lb, as per the optional rules

Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-07-2017 at 01:08 AM.
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Old 09-06-2017, 04:36 AM   #17
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Default Re: striking/lifting ST and weapons

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
What if the skill penalty for having less ST than that required for the weapon was based on the lower of lifting or striking? Seems like both would be important to using a weapon even if damage is based on striking alone for melee/thrown.
I think it would be too limiting if that was true. I see plenty of builds using Special Exercises to get precisely one or two levels of Striking ST for a combination of more damage and enough ST to use a weapon. This idea would remove the usefulness from that and make you just get more ST.

However, I would accept that if your Lifting ST isn't high enough, that (as maybe a realistic optional rule) you could add 1 to fatigue loss from encumbrance or double the weapon's weight only for checking fatigue loss. But when it comes to realistic characters, the difference between Lifting and Striking ST is at max three levels that the amount probably isn't worth the complication.
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Old 11-03-2017, 02:21 PM   #18
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Default Re: striking/lifting ST and weapons

Using lifting st for non muscle powered weapons like firearms makes sense to a degree, but what if you are using something really big. Like, a cannon? say a character has 20 ST and another 20 striking ST, would it make sense for them to be able to fire a cannon with a ST requirment of 30? they can lift its weight just from the 20 ST but don't have enough to fire it without the striking ST.
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Old 11-04-2017, 01:04 PM   #19
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Default Re: striking/lifting ST and weapons

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
B65 mentions "pushing and pulling" while B66 only says not to add it for melee weapons and throwing weapons. Bows/Crossbows/Guns aren't thrown and you do pull the bowstring...

I think that is why I thought this. That and Deadly Spring. Oh well.

I think for when it takes a whole second to draw you should get lifting ST but maybe not when using QuickDraw ? You can push or pull an object in one second right?

Especially with crossbows when you have to use a winch and several seconds.

I suppose based on "pushing" maybe lifting ST should add to shoves as well. It does fall under a grappling art of Sumo. Pushing conceptually does not need to be a strike (accelerate>contact) it goes contact>accelerate.
You can explicitly lift your BL from the ground in 1 second, and BL is determined by Lifting ST, so I would think that you can also use your full Lifting ST for drawing a bow string if you are taking at least 1 second to do so, yes. For anything faster than that, I can see requiring a matching Striking ST.
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Old 11-06-2017, 01:46 AM   #20
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Default Re: striking/lifting ST and weapons

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Originally Posted by Kfireblade View Post
Using lifting st for non muscle powered weapons like firearms makes sense to a degree, but what if you are using something really big. Like, a cannon? say a character has 20 ST and another 20 striking ST, would it make sense for them to be able to fire a cannon with a ST requirment of 30? they can lift its weight just from the 20 ST but don't have enough to fire it without the striking ST.
You don't get away with merely being able to lift a gun. You must also be able to hold it steady on-target, without feeling overburdened, without its inertia interfering with your ability to line it up etc. If you don't meet the LiftST requirement for all that, you'll suffer skill penalties, and spend more time lining it up between shots.
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