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Old 12-12-2020, 12:41 AM   #21
dcarson
 
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Default Re: Gurps SOE Weapons?

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Originally Posted by Žorkell View Post
So it couldn't be traced back to the British. Which, admittedly is odd when you consider that there was a war on.
From what pictures I've seen it looked like it was made from spare parts. So maybe the Germans will think it is a local product by the Resistance.
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Old 12-12-2020, 08:49 AM   #22
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Default Re: Gurps SOE Weapons?

Most of the special weapons of the SOE and OSS were never issued, let alone used in earnest. That in particular concerns practically all of the odder items such as the crossbows. The popular Welrod is statted in Tactical Shooting, p. 54, the cranky T13 Beano grenade in Tactical Shooting, p. 67. The FS Knife and the Smatchet can be found in Martial Arts: Fairbairn Close Combat Systems, pp. 18-19.

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Old 12-12-2020, 12:15 PM   #23
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Default Re: Gurps SOE Weapons?

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Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
The Sten was favored, more because it was low budget than anything else if the wikipedia article is correct
Also could be easily disassembled into comparatively easy to conceal parts. It barely looks like gun as it is... Also so simple that some resistance groups made their own copies.

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The Welrod was liked because it was small and also could be taken apart. It also had no manufacturer markings though it is not clear why that mattered. Apparently it could be disguised as something else.
Sometimes known as the "Bicycle pump". Looks nothing like a gun until assembled, and even when done so barely looks like one. In part I wonder if the lack of markings was more down to that ("Why does your allegedly innocent 'tube' have gun maker's marks on it?").

It suspected (but not confirmed) that it has been used since WW2, so it would seem effective for what it was, but that wasn't as really as sidearm (it was an unergonomic "bolt action" pistol), but as an assassination/sentry removal device (ideally used in direct contact with the target).

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Interestingly, the Germans did make a knock-off of the Sten, accurate to the level of copying the inspectors stamps... which seems needlessly complicated (and it's not like they have the excuse of the Khyber Pass gusnmiths who might be supposed to not fully understand the purpose and meaning of the stamps).
I knew the silenced version was well respected by some of the German "special service" guys, and due to its simplicity they copied the standard version right at the end of the war (though with a vertical magazine, rather than the side mounted magazine). Never heard about them copying the inspection stamp though.

Just looked it up, apparently they made direct copies for "clandestine operations" (and they were separate from their last ditch copy), and so wanted them to pass for British weapons. Why they bothered when they had already captured loads of the things I don't know.

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The DeLisle is an SOE weapon that gets nothing like enough love - allegedly the quietest functioning firearm ever made (although the GURPS stats I remember seeing for it were more conservative).
I had always thought that was meant to be the Welrod?
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Old 12-14-2020, 01:20 PM   #24
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Default Re: Gurps SOE Weapons?

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Originally Posted by borithan View Post
I knew the silenced version was well respected by some of the German "special service" guys, and due to its simplicity they copied the standard version right at the end of the war (though with a vertical magazine, rather than the side mounted magazine). Never heard about them copying the inspection stamp though.

Just looked it up, apparently they made direct copies for "clandestine operations" (and they were separate from their last ditch copy), and so wanted them to pass for British weapons. Why they bothered when they had already captured loads of the things I don't know.

I had always thought that was meant to be the Welrod?
I'd not heard of a copy of the supressed Sten, but stranger things have happened - like the Potsdam gerat. I'm not Skorzeny, but I would suspect that any "clandestine operation" that involves the enemy inspecting your equipment down to the armourer's stamps is a bad plan.

As to the Welrod having the reputation of the quietest firearm ever made - I'd not heard that, but again, it may be so. Personally I suspect some of the modern captive bolt cartridges must be quieter, but who knows.
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Old 12-14-2020, 02:07 PM   #25
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Default Re: Gurps SOE Weapons?

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As to the Welrod having the reputation of the quietest firearm ever made - I'd not heard that, but again, it may be so. Personally I suspect some of the modern captive bolt cartridges must be quieter, but who knows.
It was certainly a very quiet gun, but it does also have the benefit of being something a collector or historian has a reasonable chance of getting real numbers for. I would assume there's been some improvements in silencers in the last 75 years, though that might be used to permit a more powerful bullet at the same noise level rather than reducing bullet noise.
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Old 12-14-2020, 05:35 PM   #26
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Default Re: Gurps SOE Weapons?

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It was certainly a very quiet gun, but it does also have the benefit of being something a collector or historian has a reasonable chance of getting real numbers for. I would assume there's been some improvements in silencers in the last 75 years, though that might be used to permit a more powerful bullet at the same noise level rather than reducing bullet noise.
Mind you, as I understand it, most use of suppressors is not so that people don't hear you, but so that you can still hear after firing the damned thing indoors.
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Old 12-14-2020, 06:35 PM   #27
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Mind you, as I understand it, most use of suppressors is not so that people don't hear you, but so that you can still hear after firing the damned thing indoors.
Certainly that's the reason a normal gun enthusiast might have one, but various special ops and internal security services have used silencers with a primary goal of avoiding being heard. A more recent example would be the Russian PSS. In general I'd be suspicious of weapons redesigned to be subsonic, as the sonic boom mostly travels sideways and thus doesn't directly affect the shooter in the first place.
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Old 12-14-2020, 07:45 PM   #28
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Default Re: Gurps SOE Weapons?

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Certainly that's the reason a normal gun enthusiast might have one, but various special ops and internal security services have used silencers with a primary goal of avoiding being heard. A more recent example would be the Russian PSS. In general I'd be suspicious of weapons redesigned to be subsonic, as the sonic boom mostly travels sideways and thus doesn't directly affect the shooter in the first place.
Not sure about that overall - whilst there is certainly a role for (an attempt at) a silent weapon, I'm pretty sure that I recall things like the MP5SD being nothing like silent and being primarily suppressed to protect the hearing of the users - something of a case of divergent evolution. Mind you, with a semi- or full auto you're also going to want a bolt latch.

Just out of interest, does anyone have any data on the acoustic signature of captive bolt ammunition?
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Old 12-15-2020, 02:16 AM   #29
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Default Re: Gurps SOE Weapons?

With suppressed weapons, "quiet" is a relative thing. People don't appreciate how LOUD real firearms are. They are really, really loud. Crank up the volume to 10 while watching Mann's HEAT and you still won't experience it properly. Practically all of them are above the sound level that is painful, let alone damaging to the human ear.
Doing away with that BANG or BOOM is a substantial achievement, but you really can't remove the mechanical noises that come from operating the action, let alone the travel and impact of the bullet. The De Lisle was a bit quieter than the STEN Mk IIS, but not significantly so. This is from Paulson SILENCER (2002), who researched this extensively.
McCollum of FORGOTTEN WEAPONS has several videos showing this; while they aren't directly comparable due to set-up and recording equipment, they still show some of the issues (note that the WWII samples are reproductions):

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/val...-at-the-range/
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/sho...ssed-sten-gun/
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/mp5...vs-supersonic/

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Old 12-15-2020, 10:35 AM   #30
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Default Re: Gurps SOE Weapons?

I suppose quiet would mean "quiet enough to get past the next sentry" or "quiet enough to eliminate a High Value Target, without security being alerted in time to prevent extract". That is a relative measurement and often depends on random noise. I never thought about it much before but assassins must use noise concealment sort of like they use visual.
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