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Old 10-10-2014, 03:46 PM   #861
Otaku
 
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Actually that's the kind of thing power stunting mechanics are intended to handle. Cyclops has shot Wolverine many times without being able to do something like that.
I haven't been reading X-Men since about 2000 or 2001: has Cyclops been shooting to maim/kill Wolverine that much the last 14 years? If he has... actually that isn't much of a surprise, just something of which I was unaware. If he hasn't... then it doesn't really prove anything.

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
In fact he can't normally do something like that because his eye beams only deliver blunt force trauma. They can mangle flesh but they won't strip it away.
They deliver a concussive wave of force that can puncture through a decent amount of steel, or at least they were that powerful by the late 80s/early 90s. Enough crushing force will still shear off the hand; just like I've seen skunks bisected across the waist on the highway because they thought they could handstand and spray away a fast moving vehicle.

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
But apart from that Unbreakable Bones doesn't keep characters from getting crippled. They just mean it takes more damage and it will never be permanent. So there's no issue anyway. Wolverine would regrow his arm after all.
Except that is the discussion: should Wolverine have Injury Tolerance: Unbreakable bones. You are correct; if he has that Advantage, its a non-issue.
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Old 10-10-2014, 07:11 PM   #862
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by tbrock1031 View Post
Yeah, I'm going for a "happy medium erring on the side of taking time" with his healing factor. Fast: 1 HP/min with no Regrowth means that if he loses a limb, well, the limb is gone, but he'll recover from anything that doesn't kill him outright (-5xHP or more) in a matter of a few hours. His DR and IT:DR is also as much a part of the healing factor as it is his skeleton, as many injuries won't do as much damage to him right off.
I think that's a reasonable way to handle him. His survival ability is impressive, truly superhuman with strong applications that makes Wolverine a dangerous enemy but he can't wade into any lethal situation without a care because if there's so much as a flake of skin left he'll be back and raring to go in a few hours (a slight exaggeration I admit but it comes close in some of his more OTT presenations).
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Old 10-10-2014, 07:40 PM   #863
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
They deliver a concussive wave of force that can puncture through a decent amount of steel, or at least they were that powerful by the late 80s/early 90s. Enough crushing force will still shear off the hand; just like I've seen skunks bisected across the waist on the highway because they thought they could handstand and spray away a fast moving vehicle.
But that doesn't make the the flesh disappear. It just breaks it. And it would be impossible for practical purposes to shear off the hand of someone who had unbreakable bones. You'd have to pull off, snapping the connective tissue.


Quote:
Except that is the discussion: should Wolverine have Injury Tolerance: Unbreakable bones. You are correct; if he has that Advantage, its a non-issue.
My point is, since people with Unbreakable Bones can in fact be crippled, that Wolverine can be crippled with sufficient force is not an argument against him having Unbreakable Bones
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Old 10-11-2014, 12:03 AM   #864
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
But that doesn't make the the flesh disappear. It just breaks it. And it would be impossible for practical purposes to shear off the hand of someone who had unbreakable bones. You'd have to pull off, snapping the connective tissue.
Here is where we disagree; if there is enough force you can functionally sheer it off because yes, the connective tissues will eventually break... at for Wolverine in Marvel Comics, that is apparently canonical. In real life, you can lose an extermity due to massive crushing damage "pinching" it off. Eventually the flesh is so crushed that it begins to tear, and while in a normal person the bones would likely also be damaged at that point, for Wolverine they aren't. However if the force is sufficient to utterly pulverize the flesh, that flesh will indeed give way, the very flesh holding the bones in place.

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My point is, since people with Unbreakable Bones can in fact be crippled, that Wolverine can be crippled with sufficient force is not an argument against him having Unbreakable Bones
For those with Injury Tolerance: Unbreakable Skeleton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Powers p.53
Crippling is at worst lasting; you never suffer permanent crippling or dismemberment
which is why I keep raising this point: while not the Earth-616 version of Wolverine, his Earth-295 a.k.a. "Age of Apocalypse" counterpart* is close enough to consider for reference. This counterpart permanently** lost a hand because the connective tissue surrounding it was pulverized to the point it lost structural integrity, allowing the remaining force to "push away" the adamantium laced bones beneath.

If we want to hand wave this, I just want to make it official. The usual "unless the plot absolutely demands it and play-and-GM can agree" caveat that I take all traits in GURPS to include. Otherwise even if Wolverine was the inspiration for the GURPS Advantage, he doesn't quite conform to it. Normally I would just accept that as "limits of the system" but this time, the problem has been reversed; GURPS RAW is actually presenting something as invulnerable and creating problematic scenarios while the fiction does not.

Now... does tbrock1031 actually care about this? If he doesn't, I'll drop it. It isn't going to "ruin" the conversion one way or the other.

*that used to actually count as Earth-616 because... um... Marvel Comics @_@
**Unless that too has been rectonned because... um... Marvel Comics @_@
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Old 10-11-2014, 12:27 AM   #865
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
which is why I keep raising this point: while not the Earth-616 version of Wolverine, his Earth-295 a.k.a. "Age of Apocalypse" counterpart* is close enough to consider for reference. This counterpart permanently**
[/SIZE]
Nope. If that had occurred in regular continuity he would have recovered from that injury. His hand would have come back. Note incidentally that on previous occasions when his flesh was stripped away from his bones and vapourized, his skeleton stayed together in exactly the way it wouldn't.
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Old 10-11-2014, 03:12 AM   #866
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

If I recall correctly, Sym, a Limbo demon, once snapped a claw in two from a Wolverine squeleton... doesn't mean it is not unbreakeable, just that the rules were changed in that case... When dealing with Marvel continuity, you have to ignore single occurrence event or nothing make sense, imho.

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Old 10-11-2014, 09:04 AM   #867
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
Here is where we disagree; if there is enough force you can functionally sheer it off because yes, the connective tissues will eventually break... at for Wolverine in Marvel Comics, that is apparently canonical. In real life, you can lose an extermity due to massive crushing damage "pinching" it off. Eventually the flesh is so crushed that it begins to tear, and while in a normal person the bones would likely also be damaged at that point, for Wolverine they aren't. However if the force is sufficient to utterly pulverize the flesh, that flesh will indeed give way, the very flesh holding the bones in place.

For those with Injury Tolerance: Unbreakable Skeleton
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powers p.53
Crippling is at worst lasting; you never suffer permanent crippling or dismemberment
which is why I keep raising this point: while not the Earth-616 version of Wolverine, his Earth-295 a.k.a. "Age of Apocalypse" counterpart* is close enough to consider for reference. This counterpart permanently** lost a hand because the connective tissue surrounding it was pulverized to the point it lost structural integrity, allowing the remaining force to "push away" the adamantium laced bones beneath.

If we want to hand wave this, I just want to make it official. The usual "unless the plot absolutely demands it and play-and-GM can agree" caveat that I take all traits in GURPS to include. Otherwise even if Wolverine was the inspiration for the GURPS Advantage, he doesn't quite conform to it. Normally I would just accept that as "limits of the system" but this time, the problem has been reversed; GURPS RAW is actually presenting something as invulnerable and creating problematic scenarios while the fiction does not.

Now... does tbrock1031 actually care about this? If he doesn't, I'll drop it. It isn't going to "ruin" the conversion one way or the other.

*that used to actually count as Earth-616 because... um... Marvel Comics @_@
**Unless that too has been rectonned because... um... Marvel Comics @_@
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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Nope. If that had occurred in regular continuity he would have recovered from that injury. His hand would have come back. Note incidentally that on previous occasions when his flesh was stripped away from his bones and vapourized, his skeleton stayed together in exactly the way it wouldn't.
As the Reboot is a) neither Earth-616 or Earth-AoA, nor Earth-1610 (Ultimate Marvel) or whatever number the X-Movies are in, b) is being written for a whole new timeline, and c) is being written with at least a plausible eye towards playability rather than sticking 100% to the source materials, especially source materials from just before Age of Apocalypse (when I stopped reading the X-books), please don't use the extreme edge cases of Wolverine's ability of after that point as "normal" for him. (Also means the Hulk can't rip him in half, like the Ultimate version once did, without it being a killing blow.)

Mind, when I put in IT:Unbreakable Bones, I was looking more at the "takes twice as much damage to cripple" clause than the "never suffer permanent injury" clause. Now, I'm willing to consider an Accessibility limitation for negating that particular bit in order to bring things a little closer; what's a good price for it?

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Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
If I recall correctly, Sym, a Limbo demon, once snapped a claw in two from a Wolverine squeleton... doesn't mean it is not unbreakeable, just that the rules were changed in that case... When dealing with Marvel continuity, you have to ignore single occurrence event or nothing make sense, imho.
Magic and magnetism powers seem to be the two things adamantium is vulnerable to besides superscience molecular rearrangers. S'ym being a demon, magic was clearly involved. :)
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The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project A-G, H-R, and S-Z, and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation.
Ranoc, a Muskets-and-Magery Renaissance Fantasy Setting

Last edited by Phantasm; 05-26-2021 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 10-11-2014, 10:27 AM   #868
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Nope. If that had occurred in regular continuity he would have recovered from that injury. His hand would have come back.
The only explanation I can come up with is that his hand can regrow, even in AoA, but he decides to cap it as a reminder to himself that Prelate Summers can kill him.
Quote:
Note incidentally that on previous occasions when his flesh was stripped away from his bones and vapourized, his skeleton stayed together in exactly the way it wouldn't.
I've noticed that as well in 616 and every alternate where he dies. For a "real world" explanation, perhaps he has also had adamantium wires embedded in his tendons?

As to whether Wolverine should have IT:Unbreakable Bones at all: in almost every continuity, he's the poster child for Unbreakable Bones, just as Captain America's shield is the pinnacle of unbreakable objects in general. I would humbly suggest that this feature be kept for this reboot as it's a core feature for Wolverine.

Regarding vulnerabilities of adamantium: two other sources can affect it: mutant reality warping (Proteus turned Wolverine's claws into snakes), and Antarctic vibranium (which melts any metal in proximity).
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Old 10-11-2014, 01:47 PM   #869
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by tbrock1031 View Post
As the Reboot is a) neither Earth-616 or Earth-AoA, nor Earth-6160 (Ultimate Marvel) or whatever number the X-Movies are in, b) is being written for a whole new timeline, and c) is being written with at least a plausible eye towards playability rather than sticking 100% to the source materials, especially source materials from just before Age of Apocalypse (when I stopped reading the X-books), please don't use the extreme edge cases of Wolverine's ability of after that point as "normal" for him. (Also means the Hulk can't rip him in half, like the Ultimate version once did, without it being a killing blow.)
So... not an issue for you? ;)

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Originally Posted by tbrock1031 View Post
Mind, when I put in IT:Unbreakable Bones, I was looking more at the "takes twice as much damage to cripple" clause than the "never suffer permanent injury" clause. Now, I'm willing to consider an Accessibility limitation for negating that particular bit in order to bring things a little closer; what's a good price for it?
If it only applies in extreme instances... no change in cost. Yeah, all that back and forth and I realized that while I don't quite agree with what the others are saying (which was as much about comic lore as GURPS rules), Wolverine (or rather this version of him being run as a PC or NPC) should only risk losing a hand due to intentional removal, gross incompetence (which hopefully only applies to PCs) or as a specific aspect of the plot. Which I think might be inline with RAW as re-reading it I noticed I'd overlooked, in the write-up for Injury Tolerance: Unbreakable Bones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Powers p.53
Your bones are nearly indestructible, or you have alternative structural support thatís difficult to damage (e.g., internal force
fields).
Emphasis added. Yeah, that means even if AoA Cyclops is capable of blasting off the hand of that Wolverine, it need not be a factor for this version; one assumes Cyclops of that universe has a phenomenally strong Optic Blast (and likely scored a critical hit in game terms) which counts as enough of an exception for the "nearly" part; just as I would assume it a zero point feature if you could intentionally have some of your skeleton removed via surgery (albeit it sufficiently more expensive and complicated surgery)... and if not how would won price such a thing? O_o

If, however, the risk of losing a limb is supposed to be important to this version of Wolverine, perhaps to stress that he's durable, not invincible, a bit like how this build uses the classic but less impressive version of his healing factor, I'd think it would be worth at least -20% and upwards of -50%. Assuming I am not still misreading/failing to properly comprehend the Advantage, it basically provides three things:
  • doubles the amount of damage required to cripple the limb
  • prevents permanent crippling
  • provides a potential justification for additional forms of injury tolerance related to skeletal protection of internal organs

The last one is useful but not as valuable as the other two, and I am not sure which of doubling the damage threshold for a limb being crippled or a guarantee said crippling isn't going to be permanent is ultimately more valuable.

[Sidenote: This could lead to a good adventure seed: someone manages to remove part of Wolverine (along with any included bit of his skeleton), either as a trophy or form of torture (Sabertooth?) or experiment (possibly for the sake of mere curiosity) and the players trying to retrieve it... or maybe they are the one's hired to do the deed in the first place.]

I finally understand that extraordinary force, even if possible via mundane means (factory accident? >.>) is still extraordinary unless the setting itself makes such means more common, which means I was wrong to dwell upon this point. I am sorry I made us spend so much time on this, and I thank those involved for their patience in explaining things to me.
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Old 10-12-2014, 06:01 PM   #870
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

Four whole pages for the Wolverine IT:Unbreakable Bones discussion, and not one word about whether his claws are better as Claws (Talons) or Cutting/Impaling Strikers. I think that beats the Daredevil mitigated-Blindness discussion from last year! :)

Anyways, got another long one for y'all.
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The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project A-G, H-R, and S-Z, and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation.
Ranoc, a Muskets-and-Magery Renaissance Fantasy Setting
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