[DF] How big are the settlements built by the PC races?

[Greg 1]

How big are the settlements built by the different PC races in DF 3, when given no outside help or direction?

Which races build cities, towns, villages or nothing? Can these join together into larger political units?

Yes, I know that there's no canonical answer. I'm asking for your speculations.

[Pursuivant]

"Civilized" races might have very large cities, especially if magic is commonplace. They could be as big as Ancient Rome or medieval London or Beijing. "Civilized" means whatever flavor of "High Men" you have in the campaign as well as Dwarves. Dwarven cities might resemble the Mines of Moria in happier times.

The "Pastoral Races" - Elves, Gnomes, Halflings and Pixies might have communities with relatively high population densities, but will take care to make their settlements look like natural environments at first glance. That means settlements no larger than a small town.

"Savage races" - Barbarians of any species, Minotaurs, etc. will have small settlements of no more than a couple hundred people or nomadic groups of no more than 50-100 people.

How civilized the "goblin races" are is up to the GM. Orcs might have cities just as large as the largest human cities or dwarven freeholds or they might be savage barbarians with no permanent settlements.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

"Savage races" - Barbarians of any species, Minotaurs, etc. will have small settlements of no more than a couple hundred people or nomadic groups of no more than 50-100 people.

Unless this is the year that they 'Horde' (might be golden or it might not).

Population density can have savage side effects...

[bocephus]

Originally Posted by Greg 1

How big are the settlements built by the different PC races in DF 3, when given no outside help or direction?

Which races build cities, towns, villages or nothing? Can these join together into larger political units?

Yes, I know that there's no canonical answer. I'm asking for your speculations.

You can pretty much choose what feel right for you.

*I* tend to keep things in the general sizes, based less on 'population' than whats available in and around. This is pretty generic and depending on your setting you might have to dink around with the parameters. My main focus is to have a general idea of what the PCs might have access to and who might they encounter. Also this concept fits more with the "PCs are starting out in the small areas/villages, and working towards a City if you have one". If your setting starts them in a City then you can ignore most of this and focus more on what your City offers.

Large Farms - These are large successful farms that may have 4-5 families living together. They have things that are commonly available on farms, consumables mostly not durable goods. Generally cheaper goods but people are rarely skilled outside of farming and things that directly support farming. No Master Craftsmen or high skill healers. No priest or magistrate in residence. Might have walls, more likely a mix of stacked stone and good sturdy fences and buildings. Will be less than a days walk to a Village or Town in most cases. Cleared space around the farm is premium, the edges of the farm/grazing land will but up against 'the wild' land.

Village - will have a resident utility Smith, a Tavern (drinking and eating maybe one or two beds to rent), a small 'unitarian' worship space, and an open space where travelers can market their goods in a convenient location for the village(rs). There is no need for a formal market because the village is so small people know who needs what and who has what, for outside goods there will usually be a "General Store" probably run by the Mayor or someone in his family. No local nobility, only their representatives like a mayor and a seneschal/constable to keep the 'Kings Peace' sort of thing. There will be itinerant priests that travel around to bring the word, but they either share the use of the worship space or just do it in the street of tavern. The surroundings will be 'wild' within 200m-500m from the edge of town.

Town - This will have a Mill, multiple smiths maybe a wheel wright, Inn, Taverns, some shops that are supported by bringing in items for the locals and may have things made locally, a small Market area near the shops (but again no real every day people setting up stalls). There will be at least one priest resident in town (depending on your worlds religious structure), but you may not find them at the 'chapel' and there will still be itinerant priests moving through and stopping to preach/heal as appropriate. The town will be surrounded by farming/grazing land and might also have one or two specialty crafts depending on local resources (like a quarry or a clay pit). There may be Permanent or itinerant Nobility in residence, or passing through but they are far from court and probably either out of favor or to uncivilized to be at home in court. There will be small Keeps maintained by the more prominent nobility. Day to day is similar to villages other than the addition of tax collection its probably still mostly run by an appointed Mayor their retinue. Might have a small permanent guard force to man gates and deal with unrest, with a 'jail' or at least holding cells at the Guard house.

Big Town - True shipping ports, organized defenses in walls and soldiers, and crowding (smells depending on sewage technology). Increase the numbers of Inns, Taverns, Craftsmen from Town, and start seeing shops dedicated to craft goods (carpentry, leather work, barrels, pottery, wagons, durable textiles) This is where you find 'Churches', fixed structures that have full time priests and worshipers. There is also a fixed Market area in town and a market space on the edge of town for traveling merchants. Occasional luxury goods from trading or the odd local specialist. There will be some minor nobility in residence in small castles/keeps, they will often try to create a mini-Court amongst the local nobility. This would be the first place you might encounter intrigues that actually touch the major nobility. This is also the first place that caste social structures will be strong enough to cause PCs to need to socially navigate something more detailed than "The Haves and the Have Nots". Organized Crime would also be represented here. Permanent Guard force and legal system will have a Jail and possibly several guard houses.


Large and Small Cities - these are uncommon/rare. Cities primary feature will be the permanent presence of Major Nobility and multiple caste social structures, Formal Guilds, and unique or exotic goods. Mist likely these will have large ports in the City or within a half days travel by water or horse. Large structures will be here, organized defenses for both individual nobles and the City as a whole. Permanent Guard forces with multiple layers, guard houses and specialties. Daily trials, with jails and executions having fixed space.
There will be multiple market spaces on the edges of the city and possibly multiple fixed market spaces inside the City, or maybe a large Bazaar that has 'everything, if you can find it'.
PC's might need a Guide here and definitely will need social introductions to inner circles (or unusual backgrounds with some specific social skills) if they aren't local.

__________________-

As for races, I don't really mess about with a lot of them, but hold generally to the same size/scale/goods and services. How its laid out is all just fluff. Races are an unnecessary complication for me unless you have some specific world building in mind. In which case you surely don't need any generic advise form me about races :)

I for one have never been a huge fan of the idea of a Giant Elf City, because their long lives tend to lead to lower birth rates. IMO Elf towns would be unnecessarily ornate and intricate because they have had hundreds or thousands of years to 'add onto the house'. There would also be more 'multi craft Master Craftsmen' among elves and far less children. Lower quantity but higher quality goods, maybe magics depending on your trope.

Dwarves, if you subscribe to a "tolkeinesque" dwarf would be somewhere in between elves and humans.

I just don't know where you pull your tropes from to offer any help on races.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by bocephus

Large Farms - These are large successful farms that may have 4-5 families living together. They have things that are commonly available on farms, consumables mostly not durable goods. Generally cheaper goods but people are rarely skilled outside of farming and things that directly support farming. No Master Craftsmen or high skill healers. No priest or magistrate in residence. Might have walls, more likely a mix of stacked stone and good sturdy fences and buildings. Will be less than a days walk to a Village or Town in most cases. Cleared space around the farm is premium, the edges of the farm/grazing land will but up against 'the wild' land.

Note that mining/hunting/fishing/etc. camp can use this same basic structure, just a different focus on materials.

[Refplace]

Yeah it depends on attitude, resources, need, and capability.
TL4 populations are probably a good example, even if yours are TL3 because magic can give a good boost.
Seems most cities at TL3 were capped around 5,000 people but several got much higher - especially port cities.
Rome hit a million in 133BC.
Ur (Persian Gulf) had 65,000 as early as 203 BCE.
Here is a decent list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ughout_history

Elves can likely support larger cities with magic, but most depictions indicate they prefer more urban and natural areas. Dwarves more rural and denser areas.
Farmers, ranchers, and foresters are likely to be towns supporting a large area.
Mines could support any size depending on the quality and richness of the mines.
River and port cities are on earth higher population, I dont see why that needs to be different in fantasy. Water travel is a big boost for transportation and that water can also supply farms, fishing, and of course water for its people.
When making towns I look at why a town formed there and then what kind of resources are available and people to populate and exploit those resources. More resources likely means a bigger town or city.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

"Civilized" means whatever flavor of "High Men" you have in the campaign as well as Dwarves.

Why do dwarves always have to be "civilized? I like my grubby little barbaric cave dwarves.[/QUOTE]

The "Pastoral Races" - Elves, Gnomes, Halflings and Pixies

There is nothing about these races (except kinda Elves) that say they have to be pastoral. I've had river boating "gyspy" halflings, "big-city" halflings, steppe riding nomadic Mongol halflings...

I've had sprawling megalopolis elves complete with grubby homeless elves despairing in the dystopian alleyways. The cities are in balance with nature, sometimes in woods, on/in mountains, river deltas, plains, etc, bu there is nothing saying the elves cannot have huge sprawling cities, they will simply be less far "dense" and filthy/polluting than races that do not have a drive to protect nature.

Pixies, like elves, just have to maintain a good nature/industrial balance that favors nature over industry, but to can have sprawling megalolopolii. They will always be in at least a normal mana area and there are likely no No Mana Zones in their areas, or if there are they'd be marked as "unsafe". Though those markings may not be immediately obvious or understandable to non-Pixies.

How civilized the "goblin races" are is up to the GM. Orcs might have cities just as large as the largest human cities or dwarven freeholds or they might be savage barbarians with no permanent settlements.

For RAW DF versions of these humanoids...

Gobbos: There is nothing inherent saying gobs cannot have semi-advanced and civilized cities*... somewhere far, far away from where the game is generally taking place. Any settlement or tribal group encounter by PCs in "closeish" proximity to the "civilized lands" will be gerbs that have been browbeaten by orcs and hobs and others, or they may have been founded by groups of escaped slave gebs who are struggling to even survive.

* They are slightly less intelligent than most, bui they're tough and have no problems working in groups. They are just easily dominated by those bigger and meaner than they are.

Hobs should have some level of organization, even if again those encountered close to civilized lands should be barbaric. They are fractious though, so their idea of "civilized" will include ways to violently relieve social tensions. Bar fights, street fights, etc, are likely to be common. If you want a more militarized cast to them, make dueling a formalized and highly (maybe even religiously) ritualized part of their society.

Orcs have even less stopping them from being organized than hobs, orcs will work together, but they very quickly establish pecking orders where the 'bad stuff' all rolls downhill. Being the smallest and weakest does make for a good life in orc society, this is why orcs love to force gobbos to 'work' for them, there is always someone around smaller and more cowardly to push around.

Now, the above is predicated on Social Stigma (Savage) not just being a flavor of "colour-coded-for-our-convenience" racism. If they are only considered "savage" because they tend to be enemy raiders or just happened to already be living on land the king wanted to colonize, then they might all have large cities with some levels of industry.


Lizard Men. Nothing stopping the lizzards from having civilization.... except their preference for hot climates, which tends to make technology a bit more difficult. In my games I add Jungle to their terrain adaption, and they have sprawling empires in the more "undesirable" areas of the world. I fyou want to emphasize the Social Stigma (Monster) and not have it just be racial bias, you can have be slavers and man-eaters, or just have dark elder gods that require lots and lots of non-lizie sacrifices.


Basically, for the Monster and Savage races in The Next Level you have to decide for your games how much of that stigma is earned versus how much is just jingoism.

[Inky]

It seems like, since gnomes and pixies aren't in Lord of the Rings (which usually seems to be what 'dungeon fantasy' settings copy), there isn't much of a 'default position' for them as far as 'dungeon fantasy' is concerned so it's whatever you like.

Possibly, DF Gnomes might like living in larger settlements (bocephus's 'Town' size and upwards) since they like making intricate machinery and that is easier in a place big enough to have specialised workshops - also, by RAW they have Curious (12-) as standard, which sounds like they would be easily bored, so if you had gnomes living in a small village you might have bored gnomes setting off either adventuring or to the big city until the village was empty.

It looks like, DF pixies are less than 7" tall, so while they have Sense of Duty (Nature) like elves, you can fit a lot more of them into a square mile before it starts to be a strain on the ecosystem - and they have normal Move, so it wouldn't be any less 'all one village' for them than it would for anyone else. They can also fly, so they might be living in some strange places. You can imagine them living in treehouses, or tunnelling into cliffs and living there like seabirds (hopefully with better sanitation though...).

[RyanW]

I kind of like the idea of an elf "civilization" being akin to an ant supercolony. Since they are in harmony with nature, it's pretty much impossible to distinguish between greenspace within a settlement and buffer areas between settlements, so there are no real boundaries. Elves see the different areas as neighborhoods in a single sprawling settlement, even if it spans an entire continent.

Originally Posted by mburr0003

Pixies, like elves, just have to maintain a good nature/industrial balance that favors nature over industry, but to can have sprawling megalolopolii.

Nitpick. The plural of polis is poleis.

[ericthered]

You can make any PC race have cities of any size, but there are certain expectations...

I wouldn't expect any Half-Spirits to have their own kingdom... but If they do, it says something big about the setting. Which is just fine, just be ready to handle the implications of a city of fire-infused living on the slopes of a volcano.

Corpse-Eaters are going to have a hard time building a giant city by themselves. I could maybe see them building something and trying to attract immigrants, but its going to be a stretch.

I don't think wildmen are going to build cities. arguably, they won't build anything. I can't see them getting organizations much bigger than 20,000 or so, and that's going to be several groups working together.

I don't usually imagine full cities of Trolls, Gargoyles, or Ogres.

I do usually imagine full cities of Coleopterans, Dark ones, Dragon-blooded, Gnomes, and maybe minotaur.

I imagine High, Sea, and Shadow elves living in vast cities, and wood, mountain, and flying elves living in merely moderately sized ones. I don't imagine half-elves building the cities, but living in those of others.