we want more denizens!!!

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

Druids have needed very heavy lifting on my part ot make them attractive and Holy Warriors if limited to what's in print get stale fast and then either quickly become 2nd rate Knights or 2nd rate Clerics, when they should be their own thing.

Druids already are "their own thing", it's just that their own thing is all about wilderness adventuring, which isn't something every group does. Unless you're talking about the niche invasion they suffered in DF 7: Clerics.

Originally Posted by Dammann

I’ve really liked the slow build toward a hidden pirate adventuring squad in the denizens line, and a sea Druid sounds wicked cool.

I feel like as-written Druids would already be pretty damn useful to a pirate crew, especially with their weather magic. Though they should have an option to shift points from Herb Lore, Naturalist, and the like to nautical skills for exactly this reason.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Druids already are "their own thing", it's just that their own thing is all about wilderness adventuring, which isn't something every group does.

The other problem is that right now their niche is "they suck". I've had to offer them other things to bring them into the light so to speak; gave them minor healing, alternate 'powers routes' - shamanism or elementalism instead of 'nature', expended the shapeshifting and allies options, etc.

And they still aren't quite as popular as the base Cleric (though the gap did close quite a bit).

[jackcelso]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

One thing that I'd love to see covered in a Holy Warriors or Knights book (or even both!) is more archery-focused versions of these.

In this case i think the best suited class would be scout!!! who are already made to be a long range expert!!!

[tbone]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

Powers to do do aura effects to allies, better holy damage, even better Heroic Feats, supernatural offensive and defensive stuff, and so on.

Right. Most welcome of all would be new monster-smiting abilities that involve a die roll, as those would automatically benefit from Higher Purpose.

I'd consider a perk/optional rule/something that collapses the need for like 3 skills to know stuff about demons and undead.

Yeah, I made some tweets about those skills last year. I like the skills, and the idea that multiple skills mean a PC can really specialize, but the cost is so high. (And skill lists are so long...)

To quibble about things: in GURPS, Psychology extends to clinical diagnosis and treatment of disorders. Physiology is anatomist-level intricate knowledge of bodily systems and their interactions. And so on. All cool, but it's such overkill for monster hunters.

I think there's no need for perks or other new stuff, just an existing skill: Expert Skill (Demon Fighter), Expert Skill (Fae Fighter), etc. That'd cover Psychology, Physiology, and Hidden Lore for delver-level fighting purposes: distracting foes, identifying vital targets, knowing that Red Frog Demons always take orders from Green Frog Demons, etc., plus miscellaneous knowledge about tools of the hunter's trade, all in a single, affordable skill. (Full-blown Psychology, Physiology, and Hidden Lore skills would still exist, handling more esoteric knowledge for the truly dedicated sage.)

I think it's a fine option for DF overall, and a Holy Warriors book would be a good place to introduce it.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by tbone

I think there's no need for perks or other new stuff, just an existing skill: Expert Skill (Demon Fighter), Expert Skill (Fae Fighter), etc. That'd cover Psychology, Physiology, and Hidden Lore for delver-level fighting purposes: distracting foes, identifying vital targets, knowing that Red Frog Demons always take orders from Green Frog Demons, etc., plus miscellaneous knowledge about tools of the hunter's trade, all in a single, affordable skill. (Full-blown Psychology, Physiology, and Hidden Lore skills would still exist, handling more esoteric knowledge for the truly dedicated sage.)

Why would you need Expert Skill when You've got Hidden Lore right there?

Just roll Physiology and Psychology into Hidden Lore and call it a day.

As for Sage, they will be taking like 12 of Hidden Lores and all the languages, Cartography, Literature, etc, they've already got a plate full of skills, they also don't need 12 different Psychologies and Physiologies.

That's what I did for my games, made Holy Warriors a lot easier to play, not to mention Sages. Now I did keep Physiology and Psychology, but I made the specialty "Civilized Races" and called it a day.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

Why would you need Expert Skill when You've got Hidden Lore right there?

Just roll Physiology and Psychology into Hidden Lore and call it a day.

If you're willing to get rid of monster-related Physiology, Psychology, and Hidden Lore as distinct, separate skills, that's a good and easy approach. Any GM wanting to shorten the skill list should seriously consider that.

But I'm suggesting a different approach that maintains all three skills just as they are, while also offering delvers a "just the hunter-relevant stuff, please" alternative.

(I mean, I like that there's a Physiology (Demons) for the oddball sages or demonologists who actually dissect and experiment on the things. And an academic Psychology (Faerie) could be a legitimate domain of study, covering all the same sub-fields as human Psychology. It's just way more knowledge than what delvers need to kill things...)

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by tbone

Right. Most welcome of all would be new monster-smiting abilities that involve a die roll, as those would automatically benefit from Higher Purpose.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by tbone

Yeah, I made some tweets about those skills last year. I like the skills, and the idea that multiple skills mean a PC can really specialize, but the cost is so high. (And skill lists are so long...)

To quibble about things: in GURPS, Psychology extends to clinical diagnosis and treatment of disorders. Physiology is anatomist-level intricate knowledge of bodily systems and their interactions. And so on. All cool, but it's such overkill for monster hunters.

I think there's no need for perks or other new stuff, just an existing skill: Expert Skill (Demon Fighter), Expert Skill (Fae Fighter), etc. That'd cover Psychology, Physiology, and Hidden Lore for delver-level fighting purposes: distracting foes, identifying vital targets, knowing that Red Frog Demons always take orders from Green Frog Demons, etc., plus miscellaneous knowledge about tools of the hunter's trade, all in a single, affordable skill. (Full-blown Psychology, Physiology, and Hidden Lore skills would still exist, handling more esoteric knowledge for the truly dedicated sage.)

I think it's a fine option for DF overall, and a Holy Warriors book would be a good place to introduce it.

Hmmm. I agree there should be a single skill, just not sure which.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by tbone

(I mean, I like that there's a Physiology (Demons) for the oddball sages or demonologists who actually dissect and experiment on the things. And an academic Psychology (Faerie) could be a legitimate domain of study, covering all the same sub-fields as human Psychology. It's just way more knowledge than what delvers need to kill things...)

Sure... but this is something that I've actually taken to embracing with DF... if the PCs aren't going to be using it, why include it?


By which I mean, for PCs Sages I'd be more prone to let them take "Physiology" and "Psychology" as Perks to work off their Hidden Lore if they want to go deep like that, but also, in my case I ditched those skills completely and subsumed them into Hidden Lore. So the Holy Warrior with Hidden Lore (Demons) has the effects of Hidden Lore, Psychology, and Physiology all wrapped up in Hidden Lore.




Also, I re-expanded Higher Purpose back to all rolls when dealing with your subject, so that includes Acting to lie to Demons, Detect Lies, Hidden Lore, Knot-Tying, Intimidation, etc. It really makes Higher Purpose feel worth it, especially when their chosen 'foes' don't come up as often, or they have 3-5 Higher Purposes for different Evil (or Good) Supernatural foes.

I've also toyed with adding a "non-supernatural, nature based" version for Scouts "ala Rangers". But that's just a backburner idea so far.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

Not really. Holy Warriors should be supreme when combating undead and demons...and...well...they are not. Just like thieves needed sneaky combat power-ups so do holy warriors need "monster hunter-y" combat power-ups.

That doesn't follow. If you give Holy Warriors access to Weapon Master, they will already be supreme when combating undead and demons.

That they are not supreme without it is not evidence that new advantages need to be created. They just need better access to existing advantages. Heroic Grace for example becomes LOTS better if you've got Weapon Master, not to mention Peter's revised Higher Purpose. Say hello to three attacks at 4d+20!

P.S. That's a fairly typical result, not a theoretical maximum. Maximum with a half-ogre Holy Warrior at ST 24 + Contingency Casting (Might IV) + Contingency Casting (Flaming Weapon) + Striking ST 2 + Weapon Master (greatsword) + a very fine greatsword + Heroic Grace (2d6 ST that rolls a +7) + Higher Purpose 3 (Peter's version, gives +3 to every die rolled)...

That's effective ST 24+4+2+7 (37). Sw+5 damage is 6d+7. Total damage per hit: 6d+37 cut + 2 burning. (58 cut + 2.) That's high enough to give you a good chance to kill a Grimmdar in single combat!!!

4d+20 is not a maximum, just an illustration of a fairly typical damage output assuming access to Weapon Master and revised Higher Purpose. Holy Warriors don't lack cool ways to spend extra points they get beyond that.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by edk926

How do you karate chop something with high DR or judo throw something semi-tangible?

I was going to suggest Breaking Blow for the former, but checking its description I see it doesn't apply to natural armor, so while it would work against an armored foe (and should work against a golem or similar), you'd be screwed against a dragon (a power up that simply outright applies an Armor Divisor to your unarmed attacks would be welcome, here). For the latter, I believe there's a Inner Alchemy Perk that makes your unarmed strikes function as though they were made of a specific substance or similar (I believe there's a version for gold and a version that makes them function as holy weapons), so if there's something that can affect such foes as though they were tangible (like silver and holy weapons in Oblivion), that should work there; failing that, there's a version of Blessed that makes all your weapons function as though they had Affects Insubstantial, so a variant of that that applied to unarmed attacks should make Judo Throw viable (although the foe would probably just go through the floor unless you opt to maintain the grapple).