Delvers to Go party of five

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Anthony

It's a bit overly focused; there aren't a lot of problems you can solve with four thugs that can't be solved with three thugs. I'd probably drop one of the first three and add a wizard (IME thieves are only important of the GM spends a bunch of effort making sure the thief is important).

Does you have any opinions to share on which thug you'd drop, and which of the two wizards you'd replace them with (Seamus or Zephyra)?

At the risk of beating a dead horse by answering my own question: Zephyra in particular is very offense-oriented, which tends to be inefficient. It's hard for me to imagine her being better than one of the thugs because she has worse offense (over time) and worse defense than any of them. Seamus's Great Haste is a pretty good argument in favor of taking him though, if you want a more cerebral playstyle than Four Thugs and a Healer. Personally though I wouldn't drop just one thug in favor of Seamus because that leaves you stuck in the worst of both worlds, with Seamus wanting to take it slow and cautiously so he has time to Great Haste/etc. before contact is made; and yet Yvor/Argua/Llandor/Miao Miao (minus one of them) not particularly benefitting from the slow and steady approach. If I were forced to drop one of them in favor of Seamus I'd want to drop two (Argua and Miao Miao) and take both Seamus AND Jag.

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

You'd be better off asking Uncle Seamus to put on a 5 lb. heavy cloak to increase his Parry to 15, and then ask him to tank.

A cloak being used for DB is held, not worn.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Balor Patch

A cloak being used for DB is held, not worn.

Okay, poorly-chosen verb then. How about "equip"?

"You'd be better off asking Uncle Seamus to equip a 5 lb. heavy cloak to increase his Parry to 15, and then ask him to tank."

Before you say it: yes, you'd want to buy him a jo at the same time you bought him a cloak.

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

Llandor has Traps-13 (IQ +2) for purposes of setting traps, but detection is usually Per-based giving him Traps-16 for detection, ditto Dex-based disarming. With 10 points in Acute Vision, detection will spike to Traps-21, enough to keep Argua alive and unmaimed fairly effectively, as well as Pudding would but without her downsides like post-combat shakes.

I'll need to keep that in mind. I'll need to make appropriate annotation on character sheets since, I won't want to have to remember this or possibly overlook it.

NOTE: Llandor is a major pain for adventures in town and city. I don't even think he'd be able to participate in "I Smell a Rat". His Phobia of crowds is really a big problem, especially if he is to go into town during a major event like the festival that is indicated at the start of the adventure.

As for "major disadvantage against wizards and magical traps and creatures"... maybe. "Arrow to the brain" is a decent Counterspell equivalent,

A magical trap has no brain to target (See Example of Play, Exploits p 104). Also Missile Shield and Armor (protection for magic users as well as mundane items like helmet).

and I think this group would do fine in any of the DFRPG adventures I've read so far[1]. (Miriam ought to pick up Dispel Magic sooner or later just in case though, e.g. for Missile Shield.)

I don't think that Dispel Magic will work against most magic traps. Also she can't detect magic, so she'll just be blindly dispelling magic. Useful but somewhat haphazard.

But note that I am not claiming this group is "well-rounded" per se. I do think they would be fun and would do fairly well in a well-rounded campaign; ...

Understood, but I generally hate getting to point were the party hits a roadblock and has major issues overcoming it because it isn't well rounded and able to deal with most situations.

I feel that a lot of the fun would come from trying to meet challenges the hard way, with grappling hooks and disguises and bribes, etc., instead of magic. It must also be acknowledged though that none of the Delvers To Go has a particularly great spell list anyway: Llandor can get Walk On Air or Concussion as approximately as cheaply as Uncle Seamus or Zephyra can.

I forgot as an elf Llandor has Magery 0 and gets access to many low-level skills. I'm not sure he can improve magery since he's a Scout, though I think I might allow it. As to Spell lists, I think Seamus and Zephra have decent spell lists. Sure they aren't exhaustive, but good starting points.

[1] E.g. in I Smell A Rat, probably what happens is that some of the PCs take 3d-1 damage from the Evil Runes in the hallway, but they still kick down the door, kill the peshkali, and heal up. A party with a wizard would probably pretty much do the same thing unless they tunnel through the wall instead, which Aelin, Seamus and Zephyra can't do anyway.[/QUOTE]

I think Aelin can as he has Shape Earth. NOTE: I haven't read the entire adventure in detail.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

NOTE: Llandor is a major pain for adventures in town and city. I don't even think he'd be able to participate in "I Smell a Rat". His Phobia of crowds is really a big problem, especially if he is to go into town during a major event like the festival that is indicated at the start of the adventure.

Festival? I don't even remember that part. Perhaps it's an optional hook that I didn't pay much attention to. (I am planning on running it soon but with a harder frame that starts at the cellar door and does the Merchant Lee stuff as a flashback that probably won't last more than two to fifteen minutes. "Jump to the interesting decision" is my motto, and the first interesting decision happens outside the cellar door: do you go in and who goes first?) If Llandor sits out the initial conversation with Ms. Lee he won't miss anything important.

A magical trap has no brain to target (See Example of Play, Exploits p 104). Also Missile Shield and Armor (protection for magic users as well as mundane items like helmet).

Since we're discussing I Smell A Rat specifically, I'll reiterate that the wizards have nothing helpful either. Shooting the Evil Runes in the head isn't an option, but neither is Dispelling them. Everybody is equally helpless unless they can tunnel through the rock, which probably isn't worth it anyway.

As for Missile Shield and Armor, again, you don't need a wizard to counter those. Miriam can learn Dispel Magic; regular bodkin arrows from Llandor or Yvor's/Argua's/Miao miao's big swords are more than up to the challenge of defeating Armor spells; Missile Shield is useless against swords and meteoric iron arrows ($60 each). These are not the things you need a wizard for. You need a wizard for stuff like Walk On Air (Helpful Climbing Walls), Apportation (pulling levers), Blink Other (jellies), Dark Vision, and Wizard Eye. Unfortunately you can't have a wizard like that from Delvers To Go.

I don't think that Dispel Magic will work against most magic traps.

Exactly.

Also she can't detect magic, so she'll just be blindly dispelling magic. Useful but somewhat haphazard.

When you need it you'll know it. If Llandor hasn't bought any meteoric iron arrows and there's a wizard flying around charging up Lightning to throw at you or whatever, and regular arrows and sling bullets aren't working, you don't need Magery to guess that magic is involved.

Understood, but I generally hate getting to point were the party hits a roadblock and has major issues overcoming it because it isn't well rounded and able to deal with most situations.

Maybe Delvers To Go isn't the best source for PCs then.

I forgot as an elf Llandor has Magery 0 and gets access to many low-level skills. I'm not sure he can improve magery since he's a Scout, though I think I might allow it. As to Spell lists, I think Seamus and Zephra have decent spell lists. Sure they aren't exhaustive, but good starting points.

Llandor can't improve Magery, but Magery 0 is enough to access about half of the entire spell list. If you can demonstrate how the party would be better off with Zephyra instead of e.g. Argua I'll gladly listen, but I do not see it, certainly not to the extent you're predicting.

I think Aelin can as he has Shape Earth. NOTE: I haven't read the entire adventure in detail.

Let's discuss after you have.

[benz72]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

Does you have any opinions to share on which thug you'd drop, and which of the two wizards you'd replace them with (Seamus or Zephyra)?

At the risk of beating a dead horse by answering my own question: Zephyra in particular is very offense-oriented, which tends to be inefficient. It's hard for me to imagine her being better than one of the thugs because she has worse offense (over time) and worse defense than any of them. Seamus's Great Haste is a pretty good argument in favor of taking him though, if you want a more cerebral playstyle than Four Thugs and a Healer. Personally though I wouldn't drop just one thug in favor of Seamus because that leaves you stuck in the worst of both worlds, with Seamus wanting to take it slow and cautiously so he has time to Great Haste/etc. before contact is made; and yet Yvor/Argua/Llandor/Miao Miao (minus one of them) not particularly benefitting from the slow and steady approach. If I were forced to drop one of them in favor of Seamus I'd want to drop two (Argua and Miao Miao) and take both Seamus AND Jag.

I suppose it depends on the play style of the group. Is it more fun to out think opponents and circumvent obstacles or bash through them?

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

Festival? I don't even remember that part. Perhaps it's an optional hook that I didn't pay much attention to. (I am planning on running it soon but with a harder frame that starts at the cellar door and does the Merchant Lee stuff as a flashback that probably won't last more than two to fifteen minutes. "Jump to the interesting decision" is my motto, and the first interesting decision happens outside the cellar door: do you go in and who goes first?) If Llandor sits out the initial conversation with Ms. Lee he won't miss anything important.

Page 4, Clowns Guild convention, explains why all the inns are full. Note, I changed this to an annual Bards festival. Sounds better, and gives the town a regional claim to fame and explains why characters may have come there. The annual Bards festival is a major regional event which draws folks from all over. Merchants, bards, jugglers, and entertainers of all kinds. Its a great time to find employment and buy things.

As to Llandors phobia: So your fine with a -15 disad that gets IGNORED! A Disad that does not come into play and cause issues is worth no points! The Phobia (Crowds) (12) [-15] needs to be replaced with a "Dislikes crowds quirk". It's bad enough he's got Loner (12) [-5] and he's part of the party. However, he's a ranged weapon specialist so he'll typically scout ahead or lag behind and shoot from a distance. Also his unusual collecting tendencies are perhaps best done alone! :-) Anyway, you need to adjust the points or fill in different Disads. Read the intro paragraph as to Llandor NOT going into town. How is he even in the adventure? You could put the inn at the edge of town. Though rumors don't get played out.

Personally, I'll either do the replacement as I suggest or there's a host of rolls and uncomfortable, complaining, nervous role-playing. I figure he may forget some equipment and maybe is docked some FP due to poor sleep anticipating going into the crowded town.

As to the town, the suggested name if GM can't come up with one is Aransas. I'm going with Bardsville.

Since we're discussing I Smell A Rat specifically, I'll reiterate that the wizards have nothing helpful either. Shooting the Evil Runes in the head isn't an option, but neither is Dispelling them. Everybody is equally helpless unless they can tunnel through the rock, which probably isn't worth it anyway.

I haven't read the entire adventure end to end. I figure the Rat adventures would be 2nd and 3rd. I'll start with the adventure in Pyramid where "You all meet at an Inn" Pyramid 3/98 or Dungeon Fantasy Companion 3.

As for Missile Shield and Armor, again, you don't need a wizard to counter those ... You need a wizard for stuff like Walk On Air (Helpful Climbing Walls), Apportation (pulling levers), Blink Other (jellies), Dark Vision, and Wizard Eye. Unfortunately you can't have a wizard like that from Delvers To Go.

Yes, I always want a magic user in the party to handle magic stuff. Also Miriam will be busy healing folks and Turning undead. I like Wizards for things like Mass Sleep, Mass Daze and other AoE spells. There are also lots of things I expect are best dealt with if not nonviolently then non-lethal.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by benz72

I suppose it depends on the play style of the group. Is it more fun to out think opponents and circumvent obstacles or bash through them?

My friends are typically the canny, paranoid type (maybe that's partly my fault for the ruthless way I GM!), which is why I think running them through a one-shot dungeon as a mandatory Four Suboptimal Thugs and a Mediocre Healer might be a fun change of pace for us all.

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

As to Llandors phobia: So your fine with a -15 disad that gets IGNORED! A Disad that does not come into play and cause issues is worth no points!

I am fine with not wasting table time on things that don't matter, including the hypothetical clown convention in I Smell A Rat (which doesn't even come into play except as a last resort when all other checks fail). I'll happily exclude Llandor from the flashbacks where they first meet Lee--not getting to participate in negotiating for a fee is plenty of impact for a disadvantage. That's more impact than Argua's ugliness, Gluttony and Gullibility has or Miriam's No Sense of Humor and Intolerance of Evil etc. Not every disadvantage has to be crippling in every adventure.

Otherwise you might as well just eliminate most of the Delvers To Go's disadvantages. Miriam has no coreligionists in Lee's cellar? Turn that into a quirk and eliminate 10 of Miriam's spells (because she's already got five quirks). No bad guys in the cellar are fighting each other when the PCs find them? I guess Code of Honor (Gentleman's) is irrelevant--turn it into a quirk and eliminate 10 points of skills for Miao Miao.

The mere fact that Llandor essentially has to make fright checks and can therefore pick up other disadvantages just for being around large crowds makes it much worse of a disability than most, even if it happens not to be relevant to this particular adventure. It has more impact in I Smell A Rat than his Sense of Duty (Nature), Vow (Own No More Than What Can Be Carried), Bloodlust, and Callous put together, even though they add up to 40 points and his Phobia is only worth 15 points. In other adventures that might not be true--if PCs ever discover a dozen suits of magical plate armor, Vow (Own No More Than What Can Be Carried) might become Llandor's most painful disadvantage.

I sense that we have very different GMing philosophies so I'll stop there.

[johndallman]

All the lists in this thread include Sir Yvor Gryffyn. Is this for his protective abilities, his strong defence as well as offence, or just because armoured fighters are traditional?

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by johndallman

All the lists in this thread include Sir Yvor Gryffyn. Is this for his protective abilities, his strong defence as well as offence, or just because armoured fighters are traditional?

For me it's because of Sacrificial Parry and to a lesser extent Sacrificial Block/Shield Wall Training to keep others alive. It's not for tradition, and defensively he's comparable to Argua (high HP, DR) or Miao Miao (mobility, high active defenses, and Luck for negating criticals).

It's possible to build a Swashbuckler whom I'd prefer over Sir Yvor, e.g. for Kiai and close combat fighting. But of the available Delvers To Go, Yvor is the fighter I'd most want in my party, despite his crummy Move 3. It's not like Miriam has a better Move, and leaving the cleric to die is not an option. "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had..."