Undungeon-fantasyfing your DF game

[binn05]

Originally Posted by thom

QFT. This is by far the biggest difficulty I've found in trying to play a 150-pointer DF-like game. Even with Doug's superb Nordland Bestiary, I struggle with figuring out how to "downsize" monster stats...

thom

We need 1/8 Dice Kobolds from AD&D 1E. LoL.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by thom

QFT. This is by far the biggest difficulty I've found in trying to play a 150-pointer DF-like game.

I've run high powered DF games, off and on, since the DF line came out. I'm used to setting up encounters where a dozen ogres in a fortified keep is an easy fight and a half-dozen Spheres of Madness is not that big a deal.

And now I'm running a 175 pt DtG game, and tossing beginning delvers in leather armor against 30+ goblins (in waves, but still) backed a gnome artificer in full plate armor wielding a fully automatic crankbow. And there's a two-headed, four armed ogre coming up to smash people. My instincts say it's not too hard a fight but should be a good baseline for future battles.

The PCs are in no way capable of dealing with all this, and after the elf scout goes down with 2 crossbow bolts mortally wounding him, I realize I really need to recalibrate my expectations.

I think the DF line actually has adequate support for low power foes - six dinomen aren't that impressive; giant rats and ice weasels are explicitly weak foes. But the difference between experienced 300 point, full template delvers and 150 point DtG journeyman is substantial.

[Blind Mapmaker]

Are you using the fodder rules, mlangsdorf? It's been so long that I pretty much forgot about them since DFRPG left them out. These do change things quite a lot. I've never liked the "one-tap and you're out" rule, but forgoing defence rolls and incapacitation at 0 HP make things vastly more manageable for the players.

What also helps is giving humanoids and most animals a decent self-preservation instinct. And this is also more helpful to un-DF-ing the system. It might present complications when enemies flee, but those can (not necessarily will) be interesting in and of themselves.

[mlangsdorf]

I do use a modification of the fodder rules: fodder class foes defend normally, but always failed HT rolls to resist unconscious at 0 HP and flee from battle if they take a hit of more than HP/3.

Neither of which helped in that battle, as the gnome was a worthy and the ogre was a boss. And the PCs' big problem was doing any damage to those two at all, or at least doing it without taking serious wounds themselves.

I think I have managed to recalibrate, and I'm hoping the next delve - against dinomen with some tricks up their sleeves - which be much more manageable.

[NocTempre]

Consider adding Monster Hunters 2 on top of DF. The investigation system gives your world a bit of a "Witcher" feel where combat survival depends on prep - finding out (usually with non-combat encounters) the 5 Ws and How you can get that key bit of info to handle something beyond your characters. A lite treatment of chases and pulling rank further extend the out-of-dungeon potential without completely abandoning the work provided by the DF line. As mentioned, there are several pyramid articles that address lenses for extra domains like social or wilderness exploration and you can just insist players have at least one of these. Finally, destiny points give you a tool to let players have fun while getting into unsalvageable trouble without you needing to pull the punches in a dissatisfying way.

Multiple books cover all these topics in more depth, but I think MH2 is the best single addition available. YMMV

[Blind Mapmaker]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

I do use a modification of the fodder rules: fodder class foes defend normally, but always failed HT rolls to resist unconscious at 0 HP and flee from battle if they take a hit of more than HP/3.

Originally Posted by NocTempre

Consider adding Monster Hunters 2 on top of DF. The investigation system gives your world a bit of a "Witcher" feel where combat survival depends on prep - finding out (usually with non-combat encounters) the 5 Ws and How you can get that key bit of info to handle something beyond your characters. [/SNIP]

Good rules - consider them pinched!

[dataweaver]

Coming in late.

Dungeon Fantasy started out as a spoof of D&D, and eventually got turned into an adaptation of sorts — especially after incorporating Nordlondr stuff: the Nordlondr Folk are basically D&D Races with the serial numbers filed off, and the Nordlondr Bestiary (or whatever it's called; I'm not recalling off the top of my head) is the D&D Monster Manual written up in GURPS stat blocks.

So lean into that. In particular, D&D 5e has something in it that DF doesn't, but which could be just what you're looking for if done right: Backgrounds.

What I'm thinking of here is to create a series of “Background Templates” following the same pattern as how DF's Class Templates roughly mirror D&D's Classes; but build them focusing mainly on traits and mechanics found in GURPS Social Engineering — or, in the handful of cases where the Background in question represents a lack of socialization, such as the Hermit or the Outlander, some additional skills that help compensate for basically being a loner.

Basically, use these Background Templates to fill in the sorts of character traits that DF Class Templates have avoided.

For reference purposes, here are the D&D5e Backgrounds from the Player's Handbook:

• The Acolyte is a religious devotee, focused on taking care of the spiritual needs of his deity's followers.
• The Charlatan is a con artist, good at deception, sleight of hand, forgery, disguise, and other less than reputable means of trickery.
• The Criminal is less about deception than the Charlatan is, but likewise deals in the less-than-legal side of things: blackmail, burglary, enforcers, fences, highway robbery, hired killers, pickpockets, and smugglers for in this Background. Remember, this focuses on the social side of things; pair is with a Thief or a Fighter to get the skills needed to pull off the capers.
• The Entertainer livens up people's lives through entertainment: actors, dancers, fire-eaters, jesters, jugglers, instrumentalists, poets, singers, storytellers, and tumblers. Again, this deals with the social aspects of being an entertainer; but it can be paired up with a lot more than just a bard: a Scout could make money by impressing people with his trick shooting; a Knight could entertain people as a gladiator; a Thief could cover juggling or stage magician stuff; and so on.
• The Folk Hero is a common folk who has stood up for the people and is now regarded as something of a champion. This could be a Robin Hood type, but needn't have actually run afoul of the law.
• The Guild Artisan makes and sells things: your alchemists, armorers, carpenters, cooks, painters, potters, smiths, shopkeepers, caravan masters, etc. Can pair nicely with the Artificer for raw manufacturing potential.
• The Hermit has lead a secluded life of contemplation and study. Features skills include such things as Meditation and Hidden Lore.
• The Noble is your high society type, with savoir faire, Status, Wealth, and politics.
• The Outlander is most at home out in the wilderness. Foresters, trappers, homesteaders, guides, outcasts, bounty hunters, nomads, and the like. I'd start this with the Wilderness-Trained lens from [b]DF16: Wilderness Adventures[/u], then fill it out with suitable social traits.
• The Sage is similar to the Hermit, but focuses less on introspection and more on book-learning. Pairs nicely with Scholars, but also Wizards.
• The Sailor makes a living out on the seas. In addition to ship's crew, can also represent independent fishermen.
• The Soldier covers the social aspects of being in an army.
• The Urchin grew up on the streets, and knows the city's lower class quite well. Features things like Streetwise, Area Knowledge (city) and urban survival. Distinct from Charlatans and Criminals in that the Urchin doesn't break the law as a matter of course.