How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I'm really struggling to find a niche for Wrestling—.

The niche for Wrestling is to buy it up to Dex+2 and get the +2 ST bonus. Not everything can be resolved with straight Skill rolls.

[Witchking]

Judo is a good choice.

But Karate, Brawling, Boxing, etc all have a use for those 'someone is in my HEX?' moments.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

That's interesting. I had been thinking Choke Hold was of limited utility, since it only works from behind (at which point you have a lot of other options to pwn your opponent), but that looks like a rule from Basic Set that got fixed in Martial Arts. Nevertheless, it seems that DR protects fully against a Choke Hold, even flexible DR, though the blunt trauma rules still apply. Other damaging grappling techniques work better against flexible armor, but not rigid armor.

I think if you ever manage to do any damage past DR (including blunt trauma), the target starts suffocating, and doesn't stop unless you let up the pressure or the target escapes (even if you fail to do damage thereafter), so as long as you can get damage past DR, you can choke the target (although it may take a few seconds before the choking starts). Of course, choke hold is something that doesn't actually require a grappling skill unless you expect to need to do it whilst unarmed - it can default off of a weapon skill, I believe at the same penalty for using a grappling skill. Same with locks, as I mentioned above (where weapon skills are on par with Wrestling, but Judo gets a slightly more generous default).

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The niche for Wrestling is to buy it up to Dex+2 and get the +2 ST bonus. Not everything can be resolved with straight Skill rolls.

This is what I meant by its niche being invadable—AFAICT if you have the Power Grappling perk you get the same benefit from high Judo or Sumo Wrestling. Sounds too good to be true, but Kromm has confirmed that it really does do just what it says. The only room I see for ambiguity is if you strictly interpret "ST roll" to not include ST-based techniques—in which case it doesn't benefit Neck Snap or Wrench (Limb).

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Thinking about the pros and cons of various grappling skills, Judo seems like the strongest option for the large majority of characters. Fighters who use both one-handed weapons and relatively heavy armor might invest in Sumo Wrestling to access the Sweep technique without Judo or Karate's encumbrance penalties (users of two-handed weapons can just base Sweep of their melee weapon skill instead). But I'm really struggling to find a niche for Wrestling—the niche it's designed to have is too easily invaded by other skills via Clinch and Power Grappling.

Wrestling effectively gives you +1 skill over Judo because it's DX/average rather than DX/hard. It's not affected by encumbrance, and while you can offset that for Judo with Armor Familiarity, that's another point spent (and your GM might well not let you take more than one level). Wrestling gives a ST bonus to many of its moves, whilst Judo does not.

Thus Wrestling is better when you're in heavy armour, etc., and is better for breaking people, whilst Judo is be better for throwing and restraining them (and has better parries).

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

This is what I meant by its niche being invadable—AFAICT if you have the Power Grappling perk you get the same benefit from high Judo or Sumo Wrestling. S).

There are rolls in the grapping process that are raw ST v ST. Wrestling aids those but I don't think Judo does regardless of what you base it on.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

This is what I meant by its niche being invadable—AFAICT if you have the Power Grappling perk you get the same benefit from high Judo or Sumo Wrestling. Sounds too good to be true, but Kromm has confirmed that it really does do just what it says. The only room I see for ambiguity is if you strictly interpret "ST roll" to not include ST-based techniques—in which case it doesn't benefit Neck Snap or Wrench (Limb).

It still doesn't increase damage from moves that do damage based on a damage roll and not a quick contest.

By the way, if you find that techniques like this allow too much niche invasion, but you don't want to outlaw them, I suggest limiting their purchase to characters that have a style that includes them. That won't help much in the casr of Power Grappling (it's a pretty common perk amongst the styles in MA), but it will with some others. It also makes the various styles more distinct.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

There are rolls in the grapping process that are raw ST v ST. Wrestling aids those but I don't think Judo does regardless of what you base it on.

If either Wrestling or Sumo Wrestling can give its ST bonus to that roll, Power Grappling applies.

Note that while this makes Judo a broader skill than it normally is, it's still effectively worse at these rolls than Wrestling or Sumo, because they are easier and can also use Power Grappling and once they've very high skill levels probably should.

In my experience Judo (and Karate) beat out the easier skills in high point level games because you can afford to throw out that extra 5-6 points to buy off the skill difference and a perk or two to 'fill in' any limitations the skill has. Also that +1 difference in skill feels less significant when you're looking at Wreslting-20 vs Judo-19 rather than Wrestling-12 vs Judo-11.

In lower point games, having to pay an extra four (or even two) points to get a reasonable skill level hurts.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Wrestling effectively gives you +1 skill over Judo because it's DX/average rather than DX/hard. It's not affected by encumbrance, and while you can offset that for Judo with Armor Familiarity, that's another point spent (and your GM might well not let you take more than one level). Wrestling gives a ST bonus to many of its moves, whilst Judo does not.

Thus Wrestling is better when you're in heavy armour, etc., and is better for breaking people, whilst Judo is be better for throwing and restraining them (and has better parries).

With the relevant Perks in mind, you're roughly looking at Wrestling at +2 to skill over Judo + Power Grappling + Armor Familiarity 3 (so you're fine up to Heavy Encumbrance). For that relative -2, Judo allows you to use a single hand (not great for grappling, but potentially a big deal for Parrying - note Wrestling Parries are two-handed), have better mobility (Judo lets you Slip for +1 to defense, Sideslip for +2, and Retreat for +3; Wrestling is at -1, +0, and +1, respectively), get access to the coveted Judo Throw, enjoy improved defaults for several Techniques (including locks, which combined with the previous lets you do the devastating Throws From Locks), and be able to Parry swung weapons without a penalty. I think Judo also lets you initiate a lock the same turn as you Parry (rather than needing to establish a grapple first, as with Wrestling), but I may be misremembering. With the listed Perks, you'll still have the ST bonus (provided your skill is high enough; if only investing [8] total, I believe you'll only be at ST+1 with Judo instead of the ST+2 of Wrestling) and can handle encumbrance up to Heavy (6xBL) without taking skill penalties. Personally, I think that puts Judo well above Wrestling, but when it's raw skill you need, Wrestling holds a bit of an edge (it's somewhat comparable to the Brawling vs Boxing vs Karate breakdown, although personally I favor Brawling + Judo over just about any other combination). Of course, this analysis also relies on access to certain Perks, which may be unavailable (or require more investment into a relevant Style than you really want to spend).

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Varyon

...enjoy improved defaults for several Techniques...

This goes both ways - there are techniques that default to Wrestling and not Judo, just as there are from Judo and not Wrestling, so it's a matter of which ones matter to you. Of the ones where both give a default and Judo's is better it's only by one point, which is covered or more than covered by the lower Judo skill.

Locks are established the turn after you parry (and you must parry with both hands, so that advantage of Judo doesn't apply here). Wrestling is no worse than Judo at locks, by the way.

Personally, I think that puts Judo well above Wrestling, but when it's raw skill you need, Wrestling holds a bit of an edge (it's somewhat comparable to the Brawling vs Boxing vs Karate breakdown, although personally I favor Brawling + Judo over just about any other combination). Of course, this analysis also relies on access to certain Perks, which may be unavailable (or require more investment into a relevant Style than you really want to spend).

I think it depends on what moves you want to be making. Wrestling has a number of options for inflicting direct damage (especially to people on the ground if you're not) that Judo doesn't, reducing the need for a separate striking skill. Also, that +2 effective skill is a +1 to parries, so if you can't afford movement it's defensively stronger vs another unarmed opponent in some ways. I think Wrestling probably goes best with Boxing (it has a reasonable overlap of techniques with Brawling, so you don't get as much benefit from Brawling as from Boxing, IMO).

Also, thematically they're different - Wrestling feels more 'dirty' (it includes techniques like Eye Gouge), for example. So it depends on what you want.

Oh, one other thing - for someone not focussing on grappling and throwing Wrestling's higher skill level for the points is probably a strong selling point - they'll mostly be wanting something that lets them compete in quick contests where they need skill rather than raw attributes. Also, if not focusing on it they'll not be wanting to use their budget of perks on making Judo encumbrance-proof and ST-based.