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Old 05-22-2022, 09:20 AM   #11
malloyd
 
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

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Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
On the other hand, the techniques enabled by grappling skills seem somewhat less fundamental, and in many cases have defaults from melee weapon skills, so while potentially useful whether you need them depends more on your character concept. What do people think?
How much emphasis is the game likely to put on unarmed combat? If it's a combat heavy campaign and your GM is a big Technical Grappling fan, it's almost certainly going to come up and be worth the points. If you are playing a non-combatant in a game where combat isn't going to come up several times a session, or you are capable of shooting foes before they get into range, it's a lot less worthwhile.

It is one of a dozen or so skills you can drop a point or two into and be reasonably sure it won't be totally wasted - sooner or later during an adventuring career [somebody] will try to grab you even if you aren't a close range fighter type. But there are plenty of roles where it isn't so common you are crippled without a way to address it, and there are other options for doing so - Knife for example, or Blink.
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Old 05-22-2022, 11:08 PM   #12
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

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IMHO it isn't the damage that kills...it's the two rounds needed to get back onto one's feet.


A minuscule percentage of NPC/PC's are built to fight well on their back. The penalty of -3 to all active defenses for position kills. IME a character knocked off of their feet is in deep kimchi. If that happens and an enemy stays engaged sayonara.
I do agree that falling to the ground is generally pretty disastrous in GURPS. Indeed the standard GURPS grappling rules (as opposed to technical grappling) seem to strongly favor "throw someone to the ground so you can beat them while their down down" as an application of grappling over say, actually trying to achieve a pin. Though you can do that with a sweep, which has a Karate default.

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
How much emphasis is the game likely to put on unarmed combat? If it's a combat heavy campaign and your GM is a big Technical Grappling fan, it's almost certainly going to come up and be worth the points. If you are playing a non-combatant in a game where combat isn't going to come up several times a session, or you are capable of shooting foes before they get into range, it's a lot less worthwhile.

It is one of a dozen or so skills you can drop a point or two into and be reasonably sure it won't be totally wasted - sooner or later during an adventuring career [somebody] will try to grab you even if you aren't a close range fighter type. But there are plenty of roles where it isn't so common you are crippled without a way to address it, and there are other options for doing so - Knife for example, or Blink.
For these purposes I am mostly thinking of a campaign that has a fair amount of combat but where it's not especially likely to be unarmed combat, and where the technical grappling rules aren't use. Thought maybe I should take another look at TG, since it may make grappling more worthwhile.
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Old 05-23-2022, 12:07 AM   #13
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

For clarity I am running in an environment where combat certainly occurs but 3-4 runs may go by before the battlemap comes out.

Also not all combats are necessarily lethal. The bog standard barfight has been known to happen.

I just prefer to have and not need than need and not have.
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Old 05-23-2022, 03:14 AM   #14
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

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I do agree that falling to the ground is generally pretty disastrous in GURPS. Indeed the standard GURPS grappling rules (as opposed to technical grappling) seem to strongly favor "throw someone to the ground so you can beat them while their down down" as an application of grappling over say, actually trying to achieve a pin. Though you can do that with a sweep, which has a Karate default.
Given that this is a favourite in actual fights, that seems reasonable to me, though usually it's a grab and take-down rather than a sweep to drop them, but putting the boot in works the same regardless.
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Old 05-23-2022, 04:17 AM   #15
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

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It seems like almost every GURPS character should probably have a point in Brawling. While anyone can punch or kick at DX, there is no DX default for a number of fairly basic techniques, including Knee Strike. Honestly, what would it even be like to be literally incapable of performing a knee strike? On the other hand, the techniques enabled by grappling skills seem somewhat less fundamental, and in many cases have defaults from melee weapon skills, so while potentially useful whether you need them depends more on your character concept. What do people think?
In my games it's basically required for about 90% of what I run. I've been doing one-shots lately with a characters who are in the lower range (25 to 75 points) and many of them lacked any striking or grappling skill.

But for most of my games? You better put it at at least DX+0 or greater because I will have bad guys who will grapple you. Since I enjoy Doug's Fantastic Dungeon Grappling I sometimes use that and lack of grappling skill in such games can lead to a quick death. Even in games without that I'm fond of critters that can grapple and then cause damage while grappling.
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Old 05-23-2022, 06:20 AM   #16
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

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For these purposes I am mostly thinking of a campaign that has a fair amount of combat but where it's not especially likely to be unarmed combat, and where the technical grappling rules aren't use. Thought maybe I should take another look at TG, since it may make grappling more worthwhile.
That certainly sounds likely to fall into the probably not wasted but not crippling if you lack it. Something to consider spending your last few points on after you've bought everything you really need for your role, and the essential for everybody skills. On par with similar useful for any adventurer but usually not vital skills like Climbing, Diplomacy for the non-face characters, First Aid for the non-medics, Riding, Survival and Swimming.
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Old 05-23-2022, 07:18 AM   #17
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

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Thought maybe I should take another look at TG, since it may make grappling more worthwhile.
For what it’s worth, you might like the combo of Fantastic Dungeon Grappling and Exxar’s blog post more.

https://chaoticgm.wordpress.com/2020...eon-grappling/

FDG has proved smooth in play with fewer uptake issues or too many rules that have a poor value compared to overhead.
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Old 05-23-2022, 11:15 AM   #18
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
In my games it's basically required for about 90% of what I run. I've been doing one-shots lately with a characters who are in the lower range (25 to 75 points) and many of them lacked any striking or grappling skill.

But for most of my games? You better put it at at least DX+0 or greater because I will have bad guys who will grapple you. Since I enjoy Doug's Fantastic Dungeon Grappling I sometimes use that and lack of grappling skill in such games can lead to a quick death. Even in games without that I'm fond of critters that can grapple and then cause damage while grappling.
Given that a lot of grappling related rolls let you roll against better of DX or grappling skill, what benefit are they getting from having a grappling skill at DX? Judo Throw seems like a pretty useful technique but it sounds like the benefits you have in mind can just as well be supplied by 2 points in Sumo Wrestling or Wrestling.
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Old 05-23-2022, 11:18 AM   #19
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

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Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
Given that a lot of grappling related rolls let you roll against better of DX or grappling skill, what benefit are they getting from having a grappling skill at DX? Judo Throw seems like a pretty useful technique but it sounds like the benefits you have in mind can just as well be supplied by 2 points in Sumo Wrestling or Wrestling.
Choke hold comes to mind along with other skill only default techniques.
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Old 05-23-2022, 01:08 PM   #20
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: How mandatory is putting a few points in a grappling skill?

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Choke hold comes to mind along with other skill only default techniques.
That's interesting. I had been thinking Choke Hold was of limited utility, since it only works from behind (at which point you have a lot of other options to pwn your opponent), but that looks like a rule from Basic Set that got fixed in Martial Arts. Nevertheless, it seems that DR protects fully against a Choke Hold, even flexible DR, though the blunt trauma rules still apply. Other damaging grappling techniques work better against flexible armor, but not rigid armor.

Thinking about the pros and cons of various grappling skills, Judo seems like the strongest option for the large majority of characters. Fighters who use both one-handed weapons and relatively heavy armor might invest in Sumo Wrestling to access the Sweep technique without Judo or Karate's encumbrance penalties (users of two-handed weapons can just base Sweep of their melee weapon skill instead). But I'm really struggling to find a niche for Wrestling—the niche it's designed to have is too easily invaded by other skills via Clinch and Power Grappling.
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