Gadgeteer - yes, again, but with some specific ponderations

[KarlKost]

Greetings everybody, first of all I would like to apologize for bringing a topic that probably is one that causes most confusion for newplayers as well as being so overly talken in the forum. It's just that this is an advantage that is loved by many as a concept, but which lacks a bit of profoundity, or perhaps mechanics to make it all round up.

Im building a TL4 Fantasy setting, so there will be magic and spirits and gods (Im also working towards making Shamans that use social skills with spirits instead of spells or advantages as powers), that would also include an "inventors guild" (yes, there will be a mages guild, thieves guild, alchemists guild etc).

This Thread is not about my setting thou, not even about Gadgteering for it in specific, but about the advantage in general.

I have several points that I would like to include, I'll be placing those in different posts in this thread as the ideas in my head get a little less chaotic.

Let me try to begin:

First off, a little difference between "Gadgeteer tropes"

So, the first I can think of is the "Cinematic Mechanic". The person that basically can fix ANYTHING.

Now, I now what you will say, repairing is NOT covered by Gadgeteer... Which I personally find weird, to say the least. So, technically the "mister toys" can fiddle with a car and using a chewed gun and a rotten apple make it run faster, but can't fix a simple break? That's a non brainer to me.

However, the trope exists nevertheless, ranging all the way up to Mister Scott from Star Trek that ALWAYS finds a way to fix the Enterprise Star Ship.

So, it can go from a TL 5 machinist able fix any trains to a TL10 engeneer able to fix ANY problems related to a StarShip the size of a mountain operating on a fusion reactor with warp drive capabilities.

So, a few things to ponder:

1.
This type of Gadgeteer may or may NOT be able to INVENT new stuff. It's possible to have a weird inventor who's also a cinematic mechnanic, but it's also possible to have the one guy that can keep anything running but not exactly make new things.

So, no "Higher TL" stuff, inventions have to follow invention rules for non Gadgeteers, but how to build a cinematic "repairman"?

2.
Second, comes the Gadgeteer that can make incredible things, but NOT higher TL things. I place here guys like Macguyver or Batman. Sure they are fantastic, but they arent higher TL. So, here Im thinking about some kind of limitation, but that would be a brand new limitation. Any idea how to construct it? An "Own TL only" limitation? What do you guys think is the fair price?

3
Third, an idea I just had but I cant recall having ever seeing it in any media. I'll call it "Technoprimitivism". So, the idea is that, instead of making gadgets of your own TL or above, you do BELLOW. Another thing that I always wondered about this subject, is that you take penalties operating at a higher TL, but also take (lower) penalties operating bellow. Now, being able to operate equipment above your TL is an advantage, but what about a "historian engeneer" that is so well versed in old tech that a guy from TL 8 would feel absolutely at home operating a medieval forge? Or a TL 9 excentric that indulges in "Steampunk" tech just for the fun of it? (Or because he makes a lot of money at faires and selling those FUNCTIONAL machines as souvenirs).

I was thinking about an "Retro TL" advantage that allows someone to buy SPECIFIC TLs beyond his own. So, if you're TL 10, you could buy TL 8, 6, 3 and 1... Or buy all the way from 0 to 9 if you so like and if you're planning to create a "machine empire" working alone in the middle of the woods, starting with sticks and stones all the way up to the first AI robots in a few decades (I know I know, just stick with me for a while).

Is it feasible? Maybe. Gadgeteer is cinematic anyway. Is it's usable, or better saying, is it worthy of something for a PC? Maybe. If you're a time traveler or lost in an alien planet or a survival of a plane crash, perhaps. If you're playing a Time Travel game, being a "technological archeologist" may be the reason for you to be chosen to join the expedition.


Specialization

Now, Gadgeteer is too broad. Sure, you can place limitations like "Spells Only" or "Alchemy Only" - or even "Magic Only", if your Gadgeteering skills are related to creating new spells, new alchemical preparations or new magical items/creatures/...stuff. That by itself creates a new, specific trope of "Gadgeteer" - unless you're using naturally "irrestrictive" magic, like RPM or Realm Magic, that work as an even better form of it.

However, that's not the only kind of thinkerer possible - and an "all-around" Gadgeteer seems HIGHLY unlikely.

For example, Iron Man deals with machinery. He's NOT a bioengeneer... At least not according to most writters.

I would find a little ridiculous having a player breeding super mutants in tubes just because he has IQ 19 and dropped a single point in Bioengeneering after a long career of being a "Iron Man of sorts".

I feel like Specialization should be mandatory - perhaps breaking it into a range of SEVERAL advantages, for which PCs can buy any they like. For example:
Gadgeteer (Machines)
Gadgeteer (Computer Softwares)
Gadgeteer (Bioengeneering)
Gadgeteer (Spells)
Gadgeteer (Enchantment)
Gadgeteer (Alchemy)
Gadgeteer ("Spirit Craft") (an idea I just have, some sort of Mage or Shaman or most probably a GOD who is able to "craft spirits", create spiritual beings as he deems).
Gadgeteer (Social Engeneering)

Each one of those could have its own cost, requirements obviously and peculiars. For example, Social Engeneering cant have the "Quick" type, neither can Bioengeneering. "Spirit Craft" dont cost money, but rather "spiritual energy" or some such. And so on.

Also, some would be cheaper than others - Machines, Spells and Enchantments obviously more expensive than Bio or Alchemy.

So.... Thoughts?

I have more, I'll post later

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

First off, a little difference between "Gadgeteer tropes"

So, the first I can think of is the "Cinematic Mechanic". The person that basically can fix ANYTHING.

Now, I now what you will say, repairing is NOT covered by Gadgeteer... Which I personally find weird, to say the least. So, technically the "mister toys" can fiddle with a car and using a chewed gun and a rotten apple make it run faster, but can't fix a simple break? That's a non brainer to me.

Gadgeteer isn't the skill of inventing things, it's the bending of realism to let you invent things quicker than is realistic. A Gadgeteer without an Engineer skill or the like can't invent anything under the invention rules.

Mechanic and Engineer specialties do default to each other where appropriate. So if your Gadgeteer has Engineer (Automobiles) skill, then they can repair automobiles at a -6 penalty. -6 is a lot, but we're talking about someone who designs cars versus someone who works in a garage. They're not the same thing. If you want your Gadgeteer to be good at both design and repair, take both Engineer and Mechanic.

Remember that GURPS skills aren't simulations of ability. Each skill covers what it covers and nothing more. If it seems like a person who can do X can naturally do Y too, better than the defaults would indicate, then buy up some Y.

However, the trope exists nevertheless, ranging all the way up to Mister Scott from Star Trek that ALWAYS finds a way to fix the Enterprise Star Ship.

There are different meanings of the word engineer. Scotty is an engineer in the sense of "one who operates and maintains an engine." The Engineer skill refers to "someone who designs things." Scotty does not design starship engines. His skill is Mechanic.

but how to build a cinematic "repairman"?

I'm not aware of an advantage that lets you repair things very quickly the way that Gadgeteer lets you invent things very quickly. You could make one.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Scotty does not design starship engines. His skill is Mechanic.

I think he probably does both. Mechanic won't let you _modify_ the thing you can repair and maintain. You need Engineer to do modifications.

This brings us to the Artificier Talent and unless your Gadgeteer is extremely specialized he'll be a prime candidate for Artificer. As you've noted Gadgeteer without Skill (or maybe Jack of All Trades or at leastyan utterly ridiculous IQ) gets you nothing.

The "Cinematic Mechanic" probably has a very high Skill to go with all the things he can repair.

[KarlKost]

Gadgeteering Impacts on Society

Now, one important - and very discussed - aspects of Gadgeteering is "Why dont you sell that stuff"?

What that means is, why cant a single super genius cinematic gadgeteer improve the campaign's TL? Why such a marvelous genius has no impact on society?

Well, here we need two answers: it does, or it doesnt.

In case the GM actually wants for his super genius guy or team to actually increase the overall TL of the setting, good, do it. Nothing to see here.

HOWEVER. Being realistic, it takes more than a few inventions to TRULY change the TL of an entire society.

Even if the proper technologies have been created, that doesnt mean that society will instant "level up". It takes time for those techs to spread enough - if they spread at all.

There is especulation, for example, that steam engines may have been invented in ancient Greece, but was abandoned shortly after. The reason being that coal wasnt so easy to come by. Why? Because the ancient greeks didnt have the proper techniques for coal extraction developed in the 18 century by the brits. Also, the british empire had a colonial capitalistic system that allowed the accumulation of capital for that sort of endeavor. That is, 18 century british civilization was ready for the industrial revolution, ancient Greece was not.

So, it's not just a simple matter to deliver SpaceShips to aborigenals and say "now go conquer the stars!". PCs trying to actively improve the campaigns TL may find it easier said than done - even with GM's cheerleading.

Now, in case you as the GM actively DONT want for Gadgeteers to impact society in ANY way (besides some comicbooks-like fight against super villains), we must consider the options avaiable:

1. "Techno-Vow"
"My tech would be too dangerous in the wrong hands". Basically, the gadgeteer keeps all his inventions under the chest, and dont let ANYONE touch it. Maybe he's a hero worried about what others could do with it, or a power hungry super villain unwilling to share his toys - and therefore, his power - with others.
That option is... Unsatisfatory. Unless there's only 1 - or 2 at best - Gadgeteers in the entire world, that wouldnt really work, since sooner or later SOMEONE would simply decide to cash in their inventions.

2. It explodes!
That one is... Silly. Basically, it's the idea that you use your invention once and it basically goes boom boom. While I would argue that it's a possibility for some prototypes, to believe that ALL of them break soon after being used sounds more like a Looney Toones cartoon than a Gurps table.

I'll have a few more considerations about that point in one of the next posts thou

3. My machinery cant build that!
That's my personal favourite option, althought not everybody agrees. I'll try to convince those that dont.
Like I said above, society needs to be read for the technologies. So, it's not enough to simply build a battlesuit under TL8 to suddenly having those in every war in the world.
A few things to consider:
Proper assembly line - a TL 4 forge dont have the proper tools to manufacture a TL 5 steam machine, neither does TL 8 robots have the software or design to produce a TL 9 battlesuit.
If that's the case? How can the Gadgeteer do it?
By having non-standard tools.
It doesnt mean that the Battlesuit cannot be built under TL 9, it only means it needs a place that is no where else to be found to replicate.

High Costs - even if a higher TL invention could be theoretically adapted for mass production of the invention, the costs would outweight the potential gains.
Not to mistake with the costs to CREATE the prototype in the first place, those costs assume a laboratory fully built with the concept of the invention on mind. That's NOT the same as just common regular machinery for mass production.

This less option in particular (but even the first one above) means that it is possible to see half a dozen of your prototypes around - but hardly more than that

[David Johnston2]

First of all, it's perfectly possible to use gadgeteering to fix something that is broken. At the least you can quickly and inexpensively handcraft substitutes for any broken component, a new transmission, alternator whatever. No need to wait for spare parts or pay full price.

As for raising the tech level, that tends to depend on whether you are first of all restricting yourself to tech that is only very slightly more advanced than the local TL. A gadgeteer in a TL 3 setting might very well be able handcraft a TL 5 pistol and ammunition, but none of the mundane local blacksmiths and alchemists will be able to copy what they've done because the mundanes are looking at murderous skill penalties at a minimum plus gigantic operational costs.

If they can do it at all since it's easy to define gadgeteering as an actual super or magic power that simply can't be duplicated by someone who doesn't have similar powers. Even if the gadgeteer isn't trying to push the bounds of his TL, if someone tries to reverse engineer their creations, they may find that when they take apart the transmission Gadget Man built, the components make no sense. After all he built it using a coconut and twist ties. Particularly if your Gadgeteering has a power modifier, mundane engineering probably can't copy it no matter how trivial the application. I have one gadgeteer, where the trick was you could only copy what he did if you happened to have a room temperature superconductor, so it was a good thing that Valence had the power to turn metals into room temperature superconductors.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Gadgeteer isn't the skill of inventing things, it's the bending of realism to let you invent things quicker than is realistic. A Gadgeteer without an Engineer skill or the like can't invent anything under the invention rules.

I know that, but thanks for the clarification regardless, as I may have been a little unclear on my proposition. I was specifically not talking about individual skills because Gadgeteer is a very broad advantage. Even "engineer" is broad (which is why it requires specialization) - and there are more things that Gadgeteers can do than just "engineer stuff", like Bioengineer for example, and that to remain on the non-fantasy side of things. I know "Mechanics" doesnt allow you to design anything, and that was my point, to design a type of "Gadgeteer" that has cinematic repairing skills, but who is not a designer of new stuff. I wasnt trying to imply that to be linked to the advantage Gadgeteer per se, and I would like suggestions on how to do it to fill that trope - althought the answer may simply be an ungodly amount of points dumped into the Repair skill (maybe even with some techniques). Or, for a truly cinematic guy, maybe Repair! Wildcart skill with 25+

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

There are different meanings of the word engineer. Scotty is an engineer in the sense of "one who operates and maintains an engine." The Engineer skill refers to "someone who designs things." Scotty does not design starship engines. His skill is Mechanic.

He does more than just that, he DO "invent" stuff, but I agree, his bread and butter is Mechanic. But here's the thing, I dont know if we could say that he simply has Mechanic (Warp Drive) and/or Mechanic (Starships Engines) 35+, or if it's something more, some sort of advantage.

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

I'm not aware of an advantage that lets you repair things very quickly the way that Gadgeteer lets you invent things very quickly. You could make one.

That, among other things, is what I would like help for :)

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

First of all, it's perfectly possible to use gadgeteering to fix something that is broken. At the least you can quickly and inexpensively handcraft substitutes for any broken component, a new transmission, alternator whatever. No need to wait for spare parts or pay full price.

I like that! That's more or less what I was looking for. As it is, the Mechanic skill lets you repair stuff if you have the proper parts and proper tools. I would like however to have an CREATIVE mechanic that is able to... Bypass certain restrictions, to solve certain problems with inventive and creative solutions. Not exactly someone that could build Iron Man's battlesuit, but an employee of Tony Stark that was able to repair his suits using chewed bubblegun and spit if necessary and under critical situations. So, he wont modify the overall function of the things he fix, but that "legendary mechanic" can keep ANYTHING in order even under the lack of proper tools or parts.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

I like that! That's more or less what I was looking for. As it is, the Mechanic skill lets you repair stuff if you have the proper parts and proper tools. I would like however to have an CREATIVE mechanic that is able to... Bypass certain restrictions, to solve certain problems with inventive and creative solutions. Not exactly someone that could build Iron Man's battlesuit, but an employee of Tony Stark that was able to repair his suits using chewed bubblegun and spit if necessary and under critical situations. So, he wont modify the overall function of the things he fix, but that "legendary mechanic" can keep ANYTHING in order even under the lack of proper tools or parts.

That's what you get if you have a Gadgeteer with Mechanic skill but no Engineering skill. He can copy machines and even make functional copies of broken machines, but he doesn't invent anything really new. It might be reasonable to buy a -10% limitation "only to copy existing tech including the work of other gadgeteers".

[KarlKost]

Game Mechanics

Now I would like to add a few considerations about game mechanics that can be used to create a well fleshed Gadgeteer.

First of all, I see many people suggest using Modular Abilities. That's... a poor choice, imho.

That's because in order to truly be a Modular Ability, you would need to disassemble your previous inventions in order to build new ones, otherwise it wouldnt really be Modular. But that doesnt make much sense, unless you are an alien that has a set of alien parts and your machines revolve around those parts that you have no way to replace on Earth, therefore any new thing you wish to build you have to dismantle what you had before, or if you are some mage or psi that work with some sort of magic crystals that reassembles for different purposes and are unique.

Like I said previously however, I dont like very much the idea that Gadgeteer inventions are single use thou. Dont make much sense - in particular for low TL inventions that dont go above the setting TL. So, a TL 4 artificer building a clockwork "master key" device should be able to keep it - it makes no sense for it to break after a single shot.

That however get us in trouble because we already have advantages like Signature Gear, Gizmos and even Advantages as Gadgets.

So, I think that perhaps those other advantages should be fused togheter with Gadgeteer. Maybe togheter with my idea of "forced specialization", upon which you dont just simply become a Gadgeteer of all, from spells to automatons, and that's how you balance the CP costs of it, maybe with a few less useful specializations being a little cheaper - For example, Gadgeteer (Materials) would be cheaper than Gadgeteer (Machines), for "Materials" only allows to create new alloys (maybe even some drugs or other chemicals and biochemicals).

Another idea that is less than half baked in my brain is some sort of "Gadgeteer pool", upon which you would count the amount of CPs you spent on "Gadgeteering stuff", which would include the advantage itself plus advantages like Gizmos, Signature Gear (Im sure Im forgetting one Gadget related advantage here) and other Gadgets as advantages, and even including the CPs spent on the specific skills you use with your Gadgeteer, and use that as a sort of "Modular Ability" pool for attributing points to your inventions as if they were Advantages, but only for the purposes of setting the limits of your creations - rulling out planet killer Death Stars, for example. I dont know, like I said, that's less than half baked, and if anybody got a small glimpse of inspiration from that and would like to develop that idea, I would very much welcome it

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

That's what you get if you have a Gadgeteer with Mechanic skill but no Engineering skill. He can copy machines and even make functional copies of broken machines, but he doesn't invent anything really new. It might be reasonable to buy a -10% limitation "only to copy existing tech including the work of other gadgeteers".

I think that's exactly what I was looking for, thank you very much, if anybody has anything else to add to that specific topic is welcome to do, but I guess that point is fully covered. Now, to all the SEVERAL others remaining lol

I'll try to make a small summary with all the conclusions by the end - hopefully it could become material for a "Power Ups: Gadgeteer"