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Old 08-09-2021, 01:46 PM   #91
Kromm
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Default Re: GURPS On Demand

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Originally Posted by Emerikol View Post
I do wish a few of them were upgraded to 4e in terms of rules.
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Originally Posted by philreed View Post
That would be even more expensive and complicated, for possibly little to no actual return on the investment. Sean and Steven know a lot more about this than I do, but I see sales numbers vs costs and know that we would need to take a risk to make this happen.

There may be some things we can do over the next year or so, but updating older books to 4th edition isn't likely.
Although GURPS isn't nearly as math-intensive or rules-heavy as its detractors let on, it's a huge system that offers much to choose from, meaning that new stats and rules – and for that matter, new clarifications and interpretations of existing stats and rules – require extensive checking against the library, if only for page references (but usually for more). Our freelancers and playtesters sometimes help us with that, but few have access to all GURPS supplements ever, or the incentive of hourly pay to re-skim them . . . so that job mostly falls on me, and I am paid by the hour. Thus, producing a GURPS supplement gets more expensive with every new release, and most supplements are barely profitable in part due to this expense.

All of this applies even within an edition. Just as GURPS Fourth Edition supplements must be checked against the entire Fourth Edition catalog, which makes them only marginally profitable in many cases, GURPS Third Edition ones had to be checked against the Third Edition library, and thus were barely profitable at the time. Checks across editions are extremely labor-intensive, and adaptations add almost the price of original development . . . to things that most GURPS fans won't buy because they already have them. There are also costs associated with updating the layout of another era to be compatible with modern software and printing solutions, with unearthing old contracts to revisit royalties (not just for writing, but also for art and in some cases typefaces), and with simply creating database entries both for internal use and to support the website.

So, the only way re-releasing Third Edition materials is worth our trouble is if we can kick them out the door untouched save for the least of efforts to update layout. That way, we can keep prices low enough that the effort might earn back a bit of what it cost – both way back when and just the other day when we played with the layout and spent time chasing down contracts.

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Originally Posted by Emerikol View Post

That tells me you all didn't think the book was all that viable in hindsight.
Many things that were better-than-marginally profitable the first time around become money-losers if must adapt content, redo layout, and spend time digging out old contracts. A big reason for that is, again, that existing fans are reluctant to buy stuff twice, even if it's "improved."

Another, more game-design-related reason is that adaptation is harder than writing a new supplement from scratch, because it's about searching one edition for the closest equivalent in another, and thus working with two editions on a technical level. Writing from zero involves half the technical research. All of which leaves aside possible lost sales to the few existing fans who would re-buy but decide not to because they disagree with the adaptation . . .

And of course just because something sold well enough to make sense (and dollars) in 1991 or 2001 or 2011 doesn't mean it's a hot topic in 2021! GURPS has been around for a long time, and the hobby, the market, and the media environment in which those things, gamers, and designers live has changed many times. For instance, who'd want GURPS Alpha Centauri – a 2002 book based on a 1999 video game – in 2021? (Which reminds me: Licensed supplements are in their own hell, because they add the extra, usually very expensive layer of relicensing.)

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I just wish in a way there was some way for there to be a community effort to get these translated over.
Our experience is that the quality isn't there. I lurk everywhere GURPS is discussed, blogged about, and in some cases pirated. I see the things the community creates. They're long on ideas but too often short on execution. There's a reason why SJ Games pays professional editors, indexers, production artists, and project managers, after all. Yes, we could lower our standards and say, "Close enough is good enough," but Steve has never settled for that and isn't about to start – and frankly, my admiration for that is a big part of why I've remained his employee for 26 years.

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In cases where the book is primarily rules like a vehicles book then it's likely hopeless but if it were a book like alternate earths (just as an example) that is primarily about the flavor and ideas, I'd think it could be done.
Flavor and ideas need no cross-edition adaptation. This is why we stand by our decisions in this area. Nobody who calls themselves a gamer should have any problem using GURPS Alternate Earths, GURPS Mars, GURPS Places of Mystery, etc. with any edition.

Which leaves books of rules (like GURPS Mecha, GURPS Robots, and GURPS Vehicles) and stats (like GURPS Spirits, GURPS Supporting Cast, and the GURPS Who's Who volumes). Those come with all the problems I just outlined. Where we believe that the current edition can't work as a generic, universal roleplaying system without the needed content, we basically redo from start, which describes the current editions of, say, GURPS High-Tech and GURPS Supers. But we won't do that if previous-edition sales were so mediocre that we can't justify another huge editorial headache (which is the problem Vehicles faces . . .).
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Old 08-10-2021, 11:59 AM   #92
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Default Re: GURPS On Demand

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
All of this applies even within an edition. Just as GURPS Fourth Edition supplements must be checked against the entire Fourth Edition catalog, which makes them only marginally profitable in many cases, GURPS Third Edition ones had to be checked against the Third Edition library, and thus were barely profitable at the time. Checks across editions are extremely labor-intensive, and adaptations add almost the price of original development . . . to things that most GURPS fans won't buy because they already have them. There are also costs associated with updating the layout of another era to be compatible with modern software and printing solutions, with unearthing old contracts to revisit royalties (not just for writing, but also for art and in some cases typefaces), and with simply creating database entries both for internal use and to support the website.
Players being unwilling to by a 4e copy when they have a 3e copy is one of the reasons I was thinking you wouldn't want to do it if the cost is very high.

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So, the only way re-releasing Third Edition materials is worth our trouble is if we can kick them out the door untouched save for the least of efforts to update layout. That way, we can keep prices low enough that the effort might earn back a bit of what it cost – both way back when and just the other day when we played with the layout and spent time chasing down contracts.
And I hope it is clear I do appreciate that they are available on demand at all.



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And of course just because something sold well enough to make sense (and dollars) in 1991 or 2001 or 2011 doesn't mean it's a hot topic in 2021! GURPS has been around for a long time, and the hobby, the market, and the media environment in which those things, gamers, and designers live has changed many times. For instance, who'd want GURPS Alpha Centauri – a 2002 book based on a 1999 video game – in 2021? (Which reminds me: Licensed supplements are in their own hell, because they add the extra, usually very expensive layer of relicensing.)
Yeah I think I can agree that 100% conversion is not a goal.

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Our experience is that the quality isn't there. I lurk everywhere GURPS is discussed, blogged about, and in some cases pirated. I see the things the community creates. They're long on ideas but too often short on execution. There's a reason why SJ Games pays professional editors, indexers, production artists, and project managers, after all. Yes, we could lower our standards and say, "Close enough is good enough," but Steve has never settled for that and isn't about to start – and frankly, my admiration for that is a big part of why I've remained his employee for 26 years.
I would not want you to start degrading quality.


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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Flavor and ideas need no cross-edition adaptation. This is why we stand by our decisions in this area. Nobody who calls themselves a gamer should have any problem using GURPS Alternate Earths, GURPS Mars, GURPS Places of Mystery, etc. with any edition.
It would seem to me there are people out there who using 4e would not buy a 3e book. I admit I do not understand the scope of work so I'm not claiming to know better than you or anyone else for that matter. I thought, perhaps wrongly, that if it were really easy that it might be worth it for a book where the rules are scant and easily converted.



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Which leaves books of rules (like GURPS Mecha, GURPS Robots, and GURPS Vehicles) and stats (like GURPS Spirits, GURPS Supporting Cast, and the GURPS Who's Who volumes). Those come with all the problems I just outlined. Where we believe that the current edition can't work as a generic, universal roleplaying system without the needed content, we basically redo from start, which describes the current editions of, say, GURPS High-Tech and GURPS Supers. But we won't do that if previous-edition sales were so mediocre that we can't justify another huge editorial headache (which is the problem Vehicles faces . . .).
I realize some books are actual nightmares. I also realize that a LOT of these sorts of books have been done. GURPS space and magic were done so obviously they sell well. Not surprised. I thought GURPS 3e space was one of the best books ever. Magic is essential to almost any fantasy campaign.

I'm not hating on you guys for not doing it. I realize you make business decisions and I assume you have reasons. That doesn't mean I can't wish and in some cases wonder. I appreciate all of the explanations. That is more than you had to do.
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Old 08-11-2021, 09:28 AM   #93
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Default Re: GURPS On Demand

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...to things that most GURPS fans won't buy because they already have them.
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A big reason for that is, again, that existing fans are reluctant to buy stuff twice, even if it's "improved."
Wouldn't that be a feature of the GURPS fan subculture? Because in other RPGs, like D&D and WoD/CoD, until recently it wasn't uncommon to re-release books for recent editions. In Werewolf, The Apocalypse, for example, if I'm not mistaken, the Book of Wyrm has versions for 2E, 3E and W20. In Mage, The Ascension, there was recently M20 version of the Technocracy book.

I know that each case is different, each with its own peculiarities. D&D has drastic rule changes, WoD has setting updates. And I also know that aside from occasional exceptions (such as vehicles), GURPS tends to be much more compatible between editions than in other RPGs (which is a good thing). But it doesn't get out of my head that there may be a certain "cultural" factor involved. I don't know, I'm just thinking about it.

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It would seem to me there are people out there who using 4e would not buy a 3e book.
I buy a lot of 3E books. Several remain useful or easy to adapt, especially the setting ones. You can use Arabian Nights, Alternate Earths 1 & 2, Cops, Egypt, Greece, Illuminati, Imperial Rome, Middle Ages, Vikings just fine. Even Who's Who 1 & 2 can be useful. The WW2 line is also easy to use, just be careful with things that are obviously out of date, like weapons and vehicles (and the new High-Tech update most of them just fine).

As Kromm said, the biggest problem is those books that are very rule-oriented and with rules that no longer work the same way in the new edition.
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Old 08-11-2021, 10:59 AM   #94
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Default Re: GURPS On Demand

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Originally Posted by Arcanjo7Sagi View Post

Wouldn't that be a feature of the GURPS fan subculture? Because in other RPGs, like D&D and WoD/CoD, until recently it wasn't uncommon to re-release books for recent editions. [...] But it doesn't get out of my head that there may be a certain "cultural" factor involved. I don't know, I'm just thinking about it.
Yes, it's a feature of GURPS fandom. Our industry is competitive but not that competitive; we talk to other companies, and we don't sell games in a vacuum. There are two major effects at work:
  • GURPS, by being generic and universal, and having a ton of optional "rules switches" and a modular approach to genre, is more of a toolkit than a game you play out of the box. It can handle anything . . . if you're willing to do a fair bit of work. This attracts people who prefer doing to buying, who very often think of GURPS as "the last game they have to buy." This skews the game's natural market toward people who don't want to spend money, for whatever reason (poor, frugal, stingy – I have no clue).

  • GURPS lacks things like specially bound limited hardbacks, branded miniatures and accessories, associated media features, and whatnot, and doesn't have a high-pressure adventure pipeline. (This is because of the above: That stuff is profitable when you support one genre and a few settings, not at all profitable when you purport to support all genres and all settings.) This skews the game's natural market away from people who want to spend money on showy and prestige items, or to have somebody else support the official setting for them.
So, GURPS attracts small spenders instead of big spenders. The various forums, chats, social media sites, etc. for GURPS aren't constantly filled with pictures of huge gaming dens with floor-to-ceiling bookcases, lit display cases for miniatures, special gaming tables and chairs, digital map tables and devoted LANs for gamers' laptops, decorative weapons and armor, etc. Whereas if you hit, say, a D&D area, you'll totally see that stuff.

And small spenders tend not to buy every printing, revision, edition, and limited release version of the same supplement. If we had more fans who insisted on re-buying just the Basic Set in every single printing, we'd most likely think about anniversary and thematic bindings. If those were picked up en masse, we'd do it for everything. But the reality is that even when there's an entire edition shift that invalidates 90% of a supplement's content, GURPS fans seem to say, "Eh, I'm good. I'll just convert." I think that's just part of the fate of a toolkit system.

While I love you guys for your motivation and ingenuity, I won't lie: I don't love the tight purse strings, because that's the one thing most likely to put me out of a job. When it comes to work, my nightmares are about that; my dreams are about all the people with accounts on these forums buying all GURPS stuff in every slightly new version, the day it's released. ;)
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Old 08-12-2021, 12:58 AM   #95
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Default Re: GURPS On Demand

It wouldn't surprise me to learn PoD reprints from the GURPS back catalog offer a better profit margin per unit than the production of new material. I suspect there are some production costs involved in preparing older works for PoD - anyone who has to wrestle with old Quark files has my sincere condolences - but I assume these are less than the effort of producing new work. Given the skyrocketing cost of international freight, I suspect distributed PoD operations such as the one offered by Amazon are the way of the future. This allows books to be printed close as possible to the consumer and limits the amount of inventory sitting around in warehouses. But it might make quality control tricky. Unfortunately, there are only a few companies offering an international PoD service at the moment. In the meantime, I expect a lot of companies in the RPG industry will be forced to embrace distribution via PDF as the primary method of getting products to consumers at a reasonable cost. The availability of cheap tablets and smartphones means people increasingly use them at the game table. I get a sense the effectiveness of Kickstarter as a fundraising method is starting to wane. The shot of adrenaline crowdsourcing gave to the industry will presumably decline over time as people become jaded.

So where does this leave GURPS? It can probably survive for a while on a combination of PoD re-releases and occasional new PDF products, but shiny new hardcovers will be few and far between. Perhaps original PoD softcovers could happen in the future, but that would depend on projected sales. Despite the growth of D&D 5e as a cultural phenomenon, I suspect other RPGs will suffer as margins get tighter. GURPS isn't as visible to the general public as it was there were books in physical game stores. But it's not the only game system in this boat. I don't think anybody has a good answer for the impending industry shakeout.
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Old 08-12-2021, 11:09 AM   #96
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While I love you guys for your motivation and ingenuity, I won't lie: I don't love the tight purse strings, because that's the one thing most likely to put me out of a job. When it comes to work, my nightmares are about that; my dreams are about all the people with accounts on these forums buying all GURPS stuff in every slightly new version, the day it's released. ;)
This is interesting. I admit I came from a D&D background most of my life. I also think that if I weren't a very experienced DM/GM that GURPS would be daunting. I'm loving it now though and I think with the direction that D&D keeps taking there may be an opening for people like me.

I don't have a massive gaming table but I do have bookshelfs full of books. Some of those are GURPS. I do have a network and I do have four running computers in my "office" / "game room".

I like your current approach. A limited selection of printed books even if on demand and a lot of focused pdfs. Is there any thought to just going PoD from the get go? I know this would mean black and white interior but those books seem fine to me. I want you to keep your job and SJGames to continue doing what it does.
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Old 08-12-2021, 12:06 PM   #97
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Default Re: GURPS On Demand

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This is interesting. I admit I came from a D&D background most of my life. I also think that if I weren't a very experienced DM/GM that GURPS would be daunting. I'm loving it now though and I think with the direction that D&D keeps taking there may be an opening for people like me.
Well...that's what Delvers to Grow is for. Seriously. The on-ramp needs to be easier, and this is one (of several) ways to get 'r done.

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Is there any thought to just going PoD from the get go? I know this would mean black and white interior but those books seem fine to me. I want you to keep your job and SJGames to continue doing what it does.
You can do color POD through DriveThru, Amazon, and Lulu. You can also do short-run printing at Mixam, which is what I do and Phil has done for some of his personal projects. (I'm still going Mixam as much as I can, especially since DriveThru eliminated staple binding).

The issue with color is that it's something like twice as expensive to get color art AND 50-100% more expensive per copy to print (those are not compounding costs, but they are costs).

But, to wrench myself back to the "tight purses" thing, the customer is not willing to pay a directly proportionate amount of that cost. They will pay more; they won't pay more such that color works are more profitable than B/W ones.

So: it's a sacrifice to do color.

POD is also almost always "and the vendor takes a hefty cut." DriveThru, for example, takes 35% of the post-cost profit for a non-exclusive sale.

Finally, the BIG BOOKS folks want to see will generally bring in twice the revenue at four times the page count...

So big, color books via POD are basically non-starters.

Big, color books via short-run printing are marginal unless you get a hit. Like "can order and immediately move 1,000 or more copies" hit, and even then international shipping makes this a big-ol' question mark (and I do my longer-run printing in Eastern Europe thus far, so this isn't even a China question).

Color books via short-run printing are what Delvers to Grow is. Up to about 48 pages (the limit on staple). I did the Omnibus as a 96-page perfect bound book...but even Peter Dell'Orto wished it would have been lay flat. (For what it's worth, so do I, but that's something I can only do long-run printing, with a sewn binding and literally 10x more sales than the book got from the project).


In any case. I babble a bit. But I've done books ranging from 8 pages (Fantastic Dungeon Grappling) to 128 pages (Citadel at Nordvorn and Hall of Judgment) and not seen appreciable differences in sales and backer counts for them: 400 to 600. That puts the longer works simply out of reach for me, and those long works are - as noted by other authors and layout pros before me - more than proportionally difficult to get right.

In short: going POD only doesn't really help much for getting a book made and out the door. It DOES help with a notional long-tail that hasn't existed in this industry to speak of for going on 10-15 years. Because you don't have to carry any inventory.

But for making NEW stuff, you need that cash flow coming directly to you, not stopping along the way for half of the money to be extracted to "middlemen."

I'll stop now. If you're curious about details, ping me on my Discord. I'm always around. (Link expires after 7 days)
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Old 08-12-2021, 12:46 PM   #98
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Default Re: GURPS On Demand

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But, to wrench myself back to the "tight purses" thing, the customer is not willing to pay a directly proportionate amount of that cost. They will pay more; they won't pay more such that color works are more profitable than B/W ones.
Yes, putative customers like to armchair-quarterback what we "should" release – more stuff in print, more color, more full-length books, various licenses, fewer PDFs, Vehicles, etc. – but that's a very shrill, self-selecting minority found on specific forums, Discords, subreddits, 4chan threads, etc. devoted to pet interests. Whenever we break down and test the waters, we relearn the lesson that these mouths don't come with money. To be specific, people want the moon but are only willing to pay for a few grams of green cheese. They're generally ready with anecdotes about how Joe Blow over at My Personal Game Company, or The Biggest Fish in the Pond, makes it work . . . which are nice and all, but not relevant to our business, which is decidedly mid-sized and thus neither a vanity operation nor an industry giant.

Anyway, I've yet to see any evidence that short B&W PDFs with the option to print certain ones on demand aren't the best option for the majority of GURPS support.
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Old 08-12-2021, 01:19 PM   #99
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Anyway, I've yet to see any evidence that short B&W PDFs with the option to print certain ones on demand aren't the best option for the majority of GURPS support.
I thought the on demand was cheaper and less of a risk. That is why I said I thought the on demand books you are putting out right now are very acceptable to me. I don't need interior color.

And I'm really happy with the small focused pdfs at a small price. I hope no one was thinking I disagreed with that approach for tons of things.

In the last six months, I've bought magic, powers, martial arts, thaumatology, fantasy, low-tech, psionic powers, mass combat, how to be a GURPS GM in book form. So I am not unhappy. As far as I can tell these are all color covers with black and white interiors. Those suit me fine. I also bought characters, campaigns which of course are in hardback and are color interiors. I've also bought a good number of pdfs: Magic, Thaumatology: Sorcery, GM's Screen, Boardroom and Curia, City Stats,Magic: Artillery Spells, Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic, Magic: The Least of Spells, Dungeon Fantasy 7: Clerics, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races

I also got the pdfs from both kickstarters though I missed the first one so paid 18 for the 2020 and 3 for the 2021.

I also bought the Dungeon Fantasy RPG boxed set. It's the only thing I regret buying and that is only because I realize now that I really don't want to play THAT style of fantasy game exactly and I'm better off just buying the GURPS dungeon fantasy supplements combined with other stuff.

I confess that if the work is longer I prefer the book even though at times (Magic I'm looking at you) I may end up wanting the pdf also.

So I like your format. Don't take any suggestion or question as a criticism overall. I'm not a Steve Jackson Games hater who just lurks on here and complains. If I ask it may be because I am ignorant. I absolutely do not want you all to lose money or go out of business. I appreciate the explanation for why you do or don't do something. I admit to not understanding the industry all that well. I'm a computer programmer by trade. I understand that industry. I find the insights you give to be fascinating. I find it refreshing that someone from the company even gets on here and answers questions.
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Old 08-12-2021, 04:21 PM   #100
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I thought the on demand was cheaper and less of a risk.
POD usually is more expensive per copy. It's less of a risk because you don't have to guess how many copies you're going to sell.

(Traditional print runs come in thousands, with significant setup costs compared to POD. So, you need volume to amortize those setup costs, and you need a market that will purchase thousands of copies -- which RPGs simply aren't, unless you're WotC. Notice Douglas' comment upthread about a mere 1000 copies being considered a hit. You have to pay to produce those thousands of books, even if you guess wrong on how many you're going to sell, and you have to pay to warehouse them until someone actually does buy them. If you operate out of Texas, say, I think there's also an inventory tax involved. So, you avoid sinking a lot of money into producing the books up front with POD. The advantage, if you can sell out, is that the average cost per book winds up being lower than with POD. Like so many things, mass production makes things cheaper, but only in volume. In small volumes, POD is cheaper since you can avoid a lot of those setup costs in favor of some smaller setup costs. And of course the writing, editing, layout, artwork, project management, and so on will be present in either method.)
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