Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-23-2019, 12:32 PM   #351
johndallman
Night Watchman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: Steelwork for Kadath Base

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollonian View Post
Would it be possible for the ASN to have constructed a low-temperature oven to reheat parts for this purpose?
Yes, of course, but it will have to be quite large to fit some of the lengths of steel. It may be popular as living quarters.
johndallman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2019, 07:15 AM   #352
D10
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In Rio de Janeiro, where it was cyberpunk before it was cool.
Default Re: Waffen-SS Gebirgsjäger in Ice Caves and Tunnels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I'm trying to figure out how the ASNs set up defences against ghouls or other threats that might find their way through the confusing maze of caves and tunnels below Kadath. Closing off tunnels is apparently not enough, as it seems that despite no one ever seeing the ice shifting ...
Perhaps they could exploit this to create the equivalent of oilrigs inside hollow shells of ice

Their access to the tunnels would be via retractable bridges and there could be a pit with your favorite ghoul killing contraption down there, bridges meant to throw invaders down there on a switch, etc.
D10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2019, 02:45 AM   #353
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: Waffen-SS Gebirgsjäger in Ice Caves and Tunnels

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
This is much more severe than normal arctic warfare conditions. A steady -80°C isn't as cold as the most severe conditions in Antarctica, but it never stops.
It's worse than that. Within 100-200 yds of the gate pillar, the heat never goes above -80° C. The average is about -92°C and it can go below -100° C.

But, yeah, an average of -80° C is true for a lot of the city of Kadath and it's true that the temperature fluctuations aren't all that dramatic. During the 'day', the darkness seems marginally less and the temperatures are about ten degrees higher.

Though the darkness is never complete. Some of the spires of Unknown Kadath glow with a cold inner light. Others glisten darkly or emit eldritch green rays. It's never enough to truly illuminate any large area well enough for human vision to work unimpeded, but it means that shadows and movement can be seen quite far off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
The thing they can really help with is moving around on ice. But they're used to being able to see their opponents a long way off.
Yes. Unquestionably, a unit of Waffen-SS Gebirgsjäger would be ideal for providing perimeter security on the surface. There, the threats remain ghouls and nightgaunts, with the nightgaunts on the surfcace, of course, having the possibility of flying. There are also shantaks.

None of these, however, seem likely to mount a coordinated assault that would be able to face machine gun fire, let alone flak.

The nightmare scenario for Kadath base would be the Men of Leng and their Moon Beast masters reneging on their treaties and attacking Kadath base en masse, using a fleet of skyships and hordes of slave troops. However, the current strategic estimate is that such a thing would require time to plan and prepare and the ASNs would have time to call for reinforcements before any large-scale attack on Kadath was plausible.

Actual threats that Kadath base is supposed to be prepared for are such things as a lone skyship of rebels against the Moon Beasts and their otherworldly allies. Or the White Riders making a sortie, either an aerial raid using their few flying Vile Beasts, or, more likely, an overland assault mounted on ice spiders.

Neither of these are especially plausible, largely because most inhabitants of the Dreamlands regard the mountains around Kadath as cursed or taboo and any flying vehicle or beast would be hard put indeed to survive the winds there without having access to magic to predict and control the weather.*

Nevertheless, as a precaution against the extremely unlikely, Kadath base has access to as many MG42 machine guns as the garrison can realistically handle, up to two MG FF 20mm autocannon, up to two 2 cm Gebirgsflak 38 AA/AT mountain guns and a single MK108 30mm autocannon.

Which if these guns, if any, would it make sense to mount on top of the gate pillar?

*Which both the Men of Leng and the White Riders probably have, though, come to think of it. Still, they've not dared to come anywhere near Kadath yet, so it looks like the taboo on it is pretty strong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
The best bet would be to have some of them in an experimental unit that would figure out how to operate in this environment, given that the people doing it have ended up on the short end of the sensible answer ("Get someone else to do that.") A lot of the methods are likely to be unique to this environment, and involve heated shelters that the troops have to spend plenty of time in.
Of course, any job that can be given to Kadavergehorsam stormtroopers saves normal humams from freezing. The humans should limit their participation to periodic patrols that establish if there are any new threats or new tunnels, and if the mines, traps and permanent ambush positions by the stormtroopers need to be adjusted.

Granted, it is probably a good idea to have some energy that the stormtroopers can drain down there, so they won't go seeking warmblooded prey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Being very noisy is a good idea.
For the PCs? Or the ASN defence force?
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Last edited by Icelander; 02-27-2019 at 02:49 AM.
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2019, 10:44 AM   #354
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: Waffen-SS Gebirgsjäger in Ice Caves and Tunnels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Yes. Unquestionably, a unit of Waffen-SS Gebirgsjäger would be ideal for providing perimeter security on the surface. There, the threats remain ghouls and nightgaunts, with the nightgaunts on the surfcace, of course, having the possibility of flying. There are also shantaks.

None of these, however, seem likely to mount a coordinated assault that would be able to face machine gun fire, let alone flak.

The nightmare scenario for Kadath base would be the Men of Leng and their Moon Beast masters reneging on their treaties and attacking Kadath base en masse, using a fleet of skyships and hordes of slave troops. However, the current strategic estimate is that such a thing would require time to plan and prepare and the ASNs would have time to call for reinforcements before any large-scale attack on Kadath was plausible.

Actual threats that Kadath base is supposed to be prepared for are such things as a lone skyship of rebels against the Moon Beasts and their otherworldly allies. Or the White Riders making a sortie, either an aerial raid using their few flying Vile Beasts, or, more likely, an overland assault mounted on ice spiders.

Neither of these are especially plausible, largely because most inhabitants of the Dreamlands regard the mountains around Kadath as cursed or taboo and any flying vehicle or beast would be hard put indeed to survive the winds there without having access to magic to predict and control the weather.*

Nevertheless, as a precaution against the extremely unlikely, Kadath base has access to as many MG42 machine guns as the garrison can realistically handle, up to two MG FF 20mm autocannon, up to two 2 cm Gebirgsflak 38 AA/AT mountain guns and a single MK108 30mm autocannon.

Which if these guns, if any, would it make sense to mount on top of the gate pillar?
While indestructible Flaktürme studded with fighting positions spitting rage at the heavens have the right flavour, the wind and cold would be very serious obstacles. You might want to look up some of the battles in Greenland during WW II, as well as the troubles which the Germans had with the milder cold in southern Russia.

Standard doctrine in the Arctic is to rely on bolt-action firearms, and this is even colder and windier and by a society without a lot of spare resources to develop extreme-temperature lubricants. Apparently Germany's lubricants for smallarms were not good enough in the winter of 1942/1943, despite having the best chemical industry in the world. I really would not bet that autocannons stored outside under those conditions will function well in an emergency.

I would think that you would want to store the artillery somewhere heated, and run it to a fighting position out of the wind and any chance of snow or spray when the "Achtung Luftangriff" sounds.
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper

This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature
Polydamas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2019, 11:32 AM   #355
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: Waffen-SS Gebirgsjäger in Ice Caves and Tunnels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
While indestructible Flaktürme studded with fighting positions spitting rage at the heavens have the right flavour, the wind and cold would be very serious obstacles. You might want to look up some of the battles in Greenland during WW II, as well as the troubles which the Germans had with the milder cold in southern Russia.

Standard doctrine in the Arctic is to rely on bolt-action firearms, and this is even colder and windier and by a society without a lot of spare resources to develop extreme-temperature lubricants. Apparently Germany's lubricants for smallarms were not good enough in the winter of 1942/1943, despite having the best chemical industry in the world. I really would not bet that autocannons stored outside under those conditions will function well in an emergency.

I would think that you would want to store the artillery somewhere heated, and run it to a fighting position out of the wind and any chance of snow or spray when the "Achtung Luftangriff" sounds.
Yes, we certainly wouldn't want to store them outside. In any case, anyone human enough to be trusted with such a rare and valuable treasure of the Reich That Was would die quickly if expected to stand watch anywhere without heat and insulation.

However, whatever lift and cargo-handling equipment is placed on the superstructure of the indestructible pillar of black rock will require power. Which no doubt is provided by an Elemental Furnace. So when the lift and cranes aren't in use, there should be spare power for heating a small guard post on the top.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2019, 12:10 PM   #356
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: Steelwork for Kadath Base

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
This is somewhat challenging. It has to be all pre-fabricated low-temperature steel, carried over the World Tree, and assembled by unskilled labour. There will be skilled supervision, but their ability to handle anything made of metal is quite limited in -80°C conditions.
Even living Mi-gö have palms of tough, leather-like substance which seem undaunted by the cold. They transmit heat no more than heavy-duty arctic work gloves and while the Mi-gö are warm-blooded, their extremities do not seem to bother them even if they are breaking up ice in -80°C. And, of course, whether it bothers ordinary Mi-gö or not, it certainly doesn't bother Kadavergehorsam ones.

That being said, plentiful generators and heaters are a good idea, as the bonds of obedience created by the Cold Ones require energy. If you lack enough warmth or power for the Kadavergehorsmer to leech, they will eventually find another source of energy. Without direct disobedience, if possible, but if someone tries to order them to stay away from all energy for long enough and does not give them anything they can use for fuel in the meantime, they'll discover that their true masters are the Lords of the Last Waste, not mere mortal necromancers.

So, Kadath base actually has a very healthy number of Elemental Furnace generators and heaters. It's just never enough, because the security and work force keep draining every kW except the bare minimum needed to sustain the base and its human inhabitants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
One trick we can use is exploiting the cold: make use of contraction as the metal cools to make things fit more closely.
[...]
That all sounds great. Thanks a lot for doing this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
The winches will each have a bobbin weighing about a ton, with two tons for a base, axle and support, and a ton of cable, plus a ton for gearing and crank handle. They're built heavy, because they're going to be operated by ST 50 zombies, and they each need a heater to keep frost from jamming them.
In fairness, the [zombies] or Mi-gö Kadavergerhorsamer are 'only' about ST 35-40, on average. Which, granted, means that each is equivalent to 10-12 healthy and strong adult men, but they are only about 8-9' tall and no bulkier than a bipedal polar bear (but are considerably more used to walking on two legs, so perhaps gorillas might be a better comparison?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
So that's a total of about 72 tons of machinery plus 105 tons of railway and anchors.
Hefty, but necessary, I suppose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
The ASN will want to make spare parts, but it's better to store most of those in a different world, so that they can be brought in warm and fitted before they cool. Heating broken parts so they can be disassembled is best done with thermite. They will want a spare winch cable, handle and gearing stowed in-world, so those have to be fittable while they are cold, and cables should never be wound onto winches until they have thoroughly cooled to ambient temperature.
Ok, the human ASN crew will take the top floor of one or more ancient towers (now only one or two stories above the ice) and convert into heated living quarters by building hatches over any open windows and insulating the two or three floors from the stygian depths that reach under the ice.

Any spares which are needed faster than in 4-5 days can be kept inside the living areas. Otherwise, they'll just mention their needs to whoever is cleared to know aboard the cargo blimps that arrive over the World Tree.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Last edited by Icelander; 02-27-2019 at 12:13 PM.
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2019, 05:18 PM   #357
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: Waffen-SS Gebirgsjäger in Ice Caves and Tunnels

Quote:
Originally Posted by D10 View Post
Perhaps they could exploit this to create the equivalent of oilrigs inside hollow shells of ice

Their access to the tunnels would be via retractable bridges and there could be a pit with your favorite ghoul killing contraption down there, bridges meant to throw invaders down there on a switch, etc.
Can you explain this a bit better?

All materials required that are not ice will have to be imported by cargo blimp over the World Tree. I expect that only after the several months required to import the materials for the mooring mast and rails did the ASNs have a chance to move anything heavy.

What kind of retractible bridges were you considering and how heavy do you think they would be?
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2019, 06:30 PM   #358
D10
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In Rio de Janeiro, where it was cyberpunk before it was cool.
Default Re: Waffen-SS Gebirgsjäger in Ice Caves and Tunnels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Can you explain this a bit better?

All materials required that are not ice will have to be imported by cargo blimp over the World Tree. I expect that only after the several months required to import the materials for the mooring mast and rails did the ASNs have a chance to move anything heavy.

What kind of retractible bridges were you considering and how heavy do you think they would be?
Well, let me start by saying my field of expertise is psychology, not engineering, so this will be a little light in meticulous details, material knowledge and calculations, but here is a more detailed version of what I envisioned.

You mentioned that in addition to occupying one of the buildings the ASNs would also be doing expeditions down below, where there are magical icy caverns filled with horrors. The "oilrig" idea was meant as outposts in this subterranean icy exploration but for it to be viable several variables must be in its favor.

It needs solid ground to be attached to, otherwise ice shapers will have little trouble rendering it useless.

If they find solid ground, you could use the best cost-benefit materials to build some very tall supporting collums, and build a modest sized building on it, preferably big enough to handle one of these furnaces, if possible, as I imagine the Cold will be a major issue, and there wont be a steady supply of fuel coming into the structure.

For protection and perhaps insulation ice shaping could be used to create a hollow sphere of considerable size which would enable sentries to detect incursions with some advance notice, with MGs and good weaponry you would want to have the ice start as soon as they are able to land shots and im sure the ASNs would have most of the attack routes ranged and with firepower directed in its way. That should give them a better than 50/50 odds of survival

Since metals are so expensive, would it be possible to render the ice harder to be shaped by throwing salt or some other chemical on it? Maybe an alchemical mixture, if that was possible then they would be able to use it for the columns and the shell, and would gradually use it to secure tunnels from ice shaping hazards

I guess they will probably use a mix of alchemically treated metal and wood for the structure and just metal for the base (sorry for the lack of deph, I feel ignorant with regards to which materials are the best)

I imagined the bridges being very strong, capable of bearing your standard expedition team and more, after all I imagine some heavy loads will have to be carried thro it. The trap part is that I imagine them being able to open like gates letting whatever is on it fall, but in retrospect probably would be better to place a bomb on it

This much investment certainly is a lot but could be worth it for an important outpost from which further expeditions could be done.

With regard to the bridges, I imagine the bridges would work like a version of the fantasy cliche of a ballista shooting arrows with a bridge, but instead of a ballista, an engine does it. First it could extend the rail, perhaps with personel activelly introducing more and more rail to the machine as they need it, and then once it locks to a wall the plates in which things will be moved are placed

Now there are several ways in which this could be implemented. The machine could be set up to put ever more plates and build a complete bridge, which could later be retracted. Or perhaps the machine could be set up in a way that it moves a large plate over the rails like a transporter. Perhaps for longer distances (or just in general) the transporter would be favored because of weight considerations

The whole setup after properly implemented in the scale I first envisioned could end up weighting a dozen tons, but it can also be brought in modularly. First the engine, then rails and plates sufficient for initial needs, and then more rails and plates as the need arises.

The "oilrig" structure would not need more than one engine tho, but dozen tons of rails and plates.

Hope this clarified it, its a great setting I am really liking it =)

Last edited by D10; 02-28-2019 at 06:44 PM. Reason: clarity, grammar and things I considered in retrospect
D10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2019, 10:10 AM   #359
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: Waffen-SS Gebirgsjäger in Ice Caves and Tunnels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Yes, we certainly wouldn't want to store them outside. In any case, anyone human enough to be trusted with such a rare and valuable treasure of the Reich That Was would die quickly if expected to stand watch anywhere without heat and insulation.

However, whatever lift and cargo-handling equipment is placed on the superstructure of the indestructible pillar of black rock will require power. Which no doubt is provided by an Elemental Furnace. So when the lift and cranes aren't in use, there should be spare power for heating a small guard post on the top.
Yeah, but I don't think the crowded control post for the lift and cranes would double as a good FlAK emplacement. That should be as close to airtight as you can manage and located based on closeness to the machinery, whereas the AA positions need to be open enough for the FlAK to protrude out and vent fumes, and need to rotate through a half sphere with minimum obstructions. Maybe you could mount them on top of the control post, although with the wind I would expect that anything on top of the pillar will be as short as possible (also, holes for the gun barrels on the 1. Stock will suck the warm air from the ground floor into the Antarctic void, and if you want a structure like the housing for a medium-sized telescope around the guns then you need mechanisms for turning it and power for them, those Gebirgsgeschütze leave out the gun shields to save weight).

I am sure that German Engineering(TM) could find some kind of solution, but the need to have a space which is airtight so guards can survive a 4-hour shift, and then ventilated to let out propellant gasses, shell casings, etc. and allow the guns to rotate in all directions will be a challenge. So would the contrast between -80C at the muzzle, and the breech rising towards +400 after a few hundred rounds of rapid fire.

Edit: Also, given the likely threats they will want as many guns as possible to rotate independently, which again increases the challenges if you want fixed positions with some kind of heated shelter.
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper

This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature

Last edited by Polydamas; 03-01-2019 at 10:20 AM.
Polydamas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2019, 03:28 PM   #360
johndallman
Night Watchman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: Waffen-SS Gebirgsjäger in Ice Caves and Tunnels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
However, whatever lift and cargo-handling equipment is placed on the superstructure of the indestructible pillar of black rock will require power. Which no doubt is provided by an Elemental Furnace. So when the lift and cranes aren't in use, there should be spare power for heating a small guard post on the top.
I was assuming that the winches would be handled by Mi-gö or Kadavergehorsam in the design. However, the need for flak defences suggests a different way of doing things.

Don't think of the steel "corset" of the Pillar as structural. It can do that job, but under this new concept it's primarily designed as a heat distribution system. You have a large elemental furnace at one of the intersection points of the steel pentagram, with a small building around it that keeps the people on top warm. Heat is conducted through the steel to keep the various winches ice-free, the flak guns at above freezing point, and so on. When the people need to do work on top of the pillar, or fire the flak, they come out briefly, and then go in again to warm up.

To make this work, you need a very good insulating material to keep heat in the steel long enough for it to keep things warm at distances of a few metres. Can the magicians help with that? You still use low-temperature steel for the structure so that it can survive losses of heat or insulation without risk of shattering. You can't use contraction in the cold to hold it all together, but it stays warm enough that you can use bolts instead.

It would be a good idea to put the heated hut next to the lift down to ground level, just to make life easier for people going up and down. The lift will need its own heating anyway. You might also put the crane on top of the heated hut, since the elevation is convenient for not cluttering the top of the pillar, which isn't a very big area. You put the hut and lift on the side of the pillar that has a tall building closest, since that's a direction that flying attackers are less likely to use, and it's hard to fit a flak gun into the available space on that side of the pillar.

Does all that make sense?
johndallman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
antarctic space nazis, bootstrap, industry, ken hite, national socialists, nazis, space nazis, suppressed transmission, weird war ii

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.