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Old 04-30-2021, 07:09 AM   #1
Steen
 
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Default [IW] A Question About Campaign Tech Level

Hello everyone,

I'm soon to dip my toes into an Infinite Worlds campaign, and I have a question about the campaign Tech Level and the price of items in relation to that. Firstly, if the campaign is going to heavily feature world-jumping that lands the crew in all sorts of worlds, each with different Tech Levels, how do you determine the Tech Level of the campaign itself? Would it be in relation to the home base of the crew, like Tech Level 8 Homeline?

Assuming that we can established TL 8 as the campaign TL, how does that affect the price of equipment for characters from a higher TL? I am planning a TL 9 character, which means his TL9 items would cost twice as much (since it is 1 TL above the campaign TL), but that seems somewhat arbitrary, since the team will be jumping into worlds of much higher or lower TL than the campaign TL - and the price of items, as I've understood it, is doubled because of the impact they would have in a world of a lower TL. But if the team lands in a TL3 world, then I'm equipped with an item that should have cost not just twice as much, but 128(!) times as much, and vice-versa if we land in a TL9+ world.

What would you do in this situation? Would you ignore the rule, or do you have some other clever solution?
Thank you, and have a great day.
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Old 04-30-2021, 07:25 AM   #2
johndallman
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Default Re: [IW] A Question About Campaign Tech Level

The way I did this in Infinite Cabal didn't involve price lists or cost factors. The characters came from a TL4 world, except one who was from a TL3 world. They didn't have access to any other TLs at the campaign start.

During play, they bought up their personal TLs quite substantially, several to TL8. They did not tend to rely on high-TL equipment, apart from concealable armour, because they were frequently travelling through the astral plane, where high-TL gear simply doesn't work. An Infinity agent found that out the hard way when her pistol would not fire in the middle of a fight.

Obtaining high-tech equipment was a matter for roleplaying. They took some as booty from Reich-5 and Centrum agents, and traded with Infinity for some other stuff.

A price list is appropriate for agents of a major power (Infinity, Centrum or Reich-5; the Cabal isn't organised that way). Such powers can supply gear of their own TL easily, but have to work harder to get higher- or lower-TL stuff, unless they have so many agents that it's worth producing it.
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Old 04-30-2021, 07:44 AM   #3
ericthered
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Default Re: [IW] A Question About Campaign Tech Level

The High TL character pays double for explicitly high TL stuff, because its better. This might mean that they should have an extra level of wealth. This is normal: high tech folks usually have access to more and better gear. Don't double it for items the character could have gotten at a lower tech level though.



The default of infinity unlimited is a low safetech TL9, but if you want to use TL8 instead, its probably fine. And the tech level of the home base of the crew is a fine base TL for the game.



The doubling of cost for High TL items is for starting funds, and as a ballpark amount for what you can sell a high TL item in a low TL setting for, as long as the economies are relatively linked (in infinite worlds, they probably aren't relatively linked).
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Old 04-30-2021, 10:25 AM   #4
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Default Re: [IW] A Question About Campaign Tech Level

Think about the campaign. What TL will the characters regularly have access to when they want to buy things, find people will technological skills, and so on? This will be the base TL of the campaign.

In the case of Infinite Worlds, if the characters regularly return to Homeline, then the TL is 8, because that's Homeline's TL. A character from a TL9 world has the advantage of access to higher-TL equipment (at least at the start), and might have ways to go back there for more, and might even be able to bring his TL8 friends along for a visit so they can pick up cool gadgets too, but if at the end of the day the party remains headquartered out of Homeline, then that's its TL.

Suppose, however, you're playing a campaign where a Homeline team gets stranded in a primitive dinosaurs-meet-cavemen Earth, ala GURPS Lands Out of Time. The cavemen are TL0. The premise of the campaign (not just one adventure) is that the Homeline team has to survive in the primitive world. In that case, the Homeline team each have High TL 8 (or 9 for that one character) and can bring along their TL8 stuff (for a very high cost, if these are starting characters — a Homeline cigarette lighter will cost $2,560, and a good steel small knife $3,072, though assigned equipment might be a freebie from the GM).
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Old 04-30-2021, 12:44 PM   #5
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Default Re: [IW] A Question About Campaign Tech Level

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
Suppose, however, you're playing a campaign where a Homeline team gets stranded in a primitive dinosaurs-meet-cavemen Earth, ala GURPS Lands Out of Time. The cavemen are TL0. The premise of the campaign (not just one adventure) is that the Homeline team has to survive in the primitive world. In that case, the Homeline team each have High TL 8 (or 9 for that one character) and can bring along their TL8 stuff (for a very high cost, if these are starting characters — a Homeline cigarette lighter will cost $2,560, and a good steel small knife $3,072, though assigned equipment might be a freebie from the GM).
I disagree with this interpretation, I think its dependent on what TL the chars are built in, not where they adventure to.

If I (as GM) say build a 250pt char from TL8 for a campaign that will include world hopping (whether I intend to strand them in TL0 or it happens as a course of the game), then the char should be built TL8.

If they want to have a pack of disposable lighters then it will cost $2 to buy (or what ever it is) and if they end up stranded in TL0 with a pack of lighters the PC doesnt have to buy off a Wealth bump after the fact.

If a diff char who made a TL0 caveman, to join the adventure later, wanted to buy said lighter then that PC would need to come up with a TL0 item worth about $2500 for it to be a reasonable trade according to GURPS, but in reality a few hides when someone is cold might be worth it to the chars to trade and as GM I wouldnt track the $ value of that trade on either PCs char sheet.

OTOH if that same TL0 PC goes back to the TL8 world those skins from extinct species could be immeasurably valuable, this char also does not get penalized after the fact even though now the skins are worth far more than starting point value for the TL0 PC.

Last edited by bocephus; 04-30-2021 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 04-30-2021, 01:13 PM   #6
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Default Re: [IW] A Question About Campaign Tech Level

I'd say set the TL based on what gear you want the bulk of the PC's to be using. If you want everyone equipped with ETC caseless rifles and reflex tacsuits and the like, set it as TL 9. If you want them equipped with modern gear, set it as TL 8, and so forth (with the option of having the higher-TL stuff at boosted cost). Of course, you also need to keep in mind the Secret - a party with the above rifles and tacsuits are going to attract a lot of attention in a TL 3 world. If you're playing fast and loose with the Secret, the TL you decide upon will dictate a lot of gear selection; if the characters need to work to maintain the Secret, however, there shouldn't even be much along the lines of personally-owned gear - rather they'll be issued whatever is appropriate for the mission and has the least chance of causing exposure (so they may well be largely equipped with TL 3 gear when they go to a TL 3 timeline). You're back to personally-owned gear if they are independent agents, of course, but they'll still need to do their best to avoid attracting attention (which may mean having to leave most of their gear at home when going to low TL timelines).
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Old 04-30-2021, 01:54 PM   #7
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Default Re: [IW] A Question About Campaign Tech Level

Quote:
Originally Posted by bocephus View Post
I disagree with this interpretation, I think its dependent on what TL the chars are built in, not where they adventure to.
Note: I'm talking about CAMPAIGN TL — that is, the basis for the campaign. I'm not talking about an ongoing game where in one adventure the characters happen to strand themselves in a low TL. I'm talking about an entire campaign in which the whole point is to be in a low TL. You have a definite advantage over the natives... but you have limited resources: no more than you brought into the setting.

This would not apply to, say, a campaign in which modern people were stranded in realistic dinosaur times. There is no TL there, no civilization at all, so the campaign base would be TL8. There is no one to be technologically superior to.

If your campaign is not all about interacting with the TL0 society, then it's not a TL0 campaign.

Quote:
If I (as GM) say build a 250pt char from TL8 for a campaign that will include world hopping (whether I intend to strand them in TL0 or it happens as a course of the game), then the char should be built TL8.
The character's TL is different than the setting's TL. You have to decide on the TL of the campaign. A campaign that includes world-hopping will not be based on the TL0 world. A campaign about STRANDED world-hoppers that is based ONLY in the TL0 world will be a TL0 campaign.

Quote:
If they want to have a pack of disposable lighters then it will cost $2 to buy (or what ever it is) and if they end up stranded in TL0 with a pack of lighters the PC doesnt have to buy off a Wealth bump after the fact.
Then they will have a significant advantage over all the TL0 natives who don't have access to things like disposable lighters and high-quality steel knives.

The GM in such a campaign has a choice. They can ignore starting wealth completely and just say what the characters start with in the new world (maybe their Patron assigned them equipment), or they can use the Tech Level and Equipment rule (if they arrived with their own personal equipment), especially if not every character is from TL8.

Quote:
If a diff char who made a TL0 caveman, to join the adventure later, wanted to buy said lighter then that PC would need to come up with a TL0 item worth about $2500 for it to be a reasonable trade according to GURPS, but in reality a few hides when someone is cold might be worth it to the chars to trade and as GM I wouldnt track the $ value of that trade on either PCs char sheet.
This is only about starting equipment, not how much you can sell it for. I didn't say anything about tracking the value of TL8 equipment on character sheets. The point of the Tech Level and Equipment rule is "How fair is it to have high TL equipment in a low TL world?" not "Simulate the economics of high-tech equipment in a low-tech world."

Quote:
OTOH if that same TL0 PC goes back to the TL8 world
Then it was NOT a TL0 campaign after all. Saying "This campaign is TL0" means it's based in TL0. TL8 characters don't have continuing access to TL8. If they do, it's really a TL8 campaign.

Last edited by Stormcrow; 04-30-2021 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 05-01-2021, 04:06 PM   #8
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Default Re: [IW] A Question About Campaign Tech Level

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
Note: I'm talking about CAMPAIGN TL — that is, the basis for the campaign. I'm not talking about an ongoing game where in one adventure the characters happen to strand themselves in a low TL. I'm talking about an entire campaign in which the whole point is to be in a low TL. You have a definite advantage over the natives... but you have limited resources: no more than you brought into the setting.

This would not apply to, say, a campaign in which modern people were stranded in realistic dinosaur times. There is no TL there, no civilization at all, so the campaign base would be TL8. There is no one to be technologically superior to.
First off the original poster was talking about a campaign TL8(+) because he's working in Infinite Worlds. Infinite Worlds says its a TL8 with TL9 "pockets" so there's your "Campaign TL". It looks like you might have missed the basis for the thread and why I disagreed with your first post, I assumed you knew that part, if not then the rest of my response will confuse you even more.

Second if they are world hopping where they are 'hopping to' has no relevance to char creation and gear prices. IE TL8 hopping to TL1, does not have to pay an "import fee" on his char sheet for stuff he brought along.
The PC is built on the TL8+ model and gears up based on TL8+ prices with his TL8+ starting money.

To my point if someone wanted to join the campaign from as a native to the TL1 world, I would give them the same starting points but allow them to bank them to spend as they are exposed to things. I would probably encourage them to spend pretty heavily on advantages and attributes initially, but skills would be based on exposure and basic learning would be fairly easy.
If that char joined the team and was wearing clothing made of some extinct animal and then returned with the team to Homeline, I would allow the PC to sell it for a premium in Homeline without penalizing the players char sheet. Again there's not a character import penalty for a happy circumstance that occurs in game play. Really you could argue that is just a simple GM tool to be able to get this char up to speed faster and reflects the TL8 starting money he should have had on char generation.
To take this example to absurdity the TL1 "caveman" should have a starting wealth of $20,000 TL8. Which is like $2.5 million TL1. What could a TL1 char possibly have worth $2.5 million and be transportable :)



---------------------------
To go straight back to the Original poster (Steen)
Infinite Worlds is "TL8 with pockets of TL9"
So there is TL9 gear available as the GM allows. That gear should be double price with TL8 being the starting money (if you wanted to be a particularly kind GM you could split the starting cash difference and let them start with a base of $25k rather than $20k to reflect the mid way between TL8 and TL9).

Your TL9 PC starts with TL8 base cash, while he might have more access to TL9 gear it will still be double the price as your Campaign setting is TL8(+).

Be a little careful to make sure that the access to gear doesn't become too overpowering vs the other PCs, but the price is really the big equalizer and TL8(+) vs TL9 isn't that big a spread.

Once your team starts jumping then the local TL price "In Game" becomes the relevant measure. If they hop to a TL3 location, and want to buy a metal pot for cooking, its going to cost $200 local currency. They arent paying in TL8 currency so the TL cost thing doesnt come into play. It doesnt matter that they could get a far superior product in walmart for $12, this TL3 vendor wants $200 local currency. You might be able to trade your $10 walmart pocket knife for it (if it didnt break the secret about Homeline) but once game play begins that TL conversion is just a way to figure out relative prices for the GM, not TL8 prices for the PCs. On the char sheet I would just list it as a metal pot maybe using a suggestion from another thread and list it ($200) so the we knew that it wasnt a TL8 price.
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Old 05-01-2021, 07:35 PM   #9
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Default Re: [IW] A Question About Campaign Tech Level

Quote:
Originally Posted by bocephus View Post
First off the original poster was talking about a campaign TL8(+) because he's working in Infinite Worlds. Infinite Worlds says its a TL8 with TL9 "pockets" so there's your "Campaign TL". It looks like you might have missed the basis for the thread and why I disagreed with your first post, I assumed you knew that part, if not then the rest of my response will confuse you even more.
Perhaps you missed the part of my first post that said,
Quote:
In the case of Infinite Worlds, if the characters regularly return to Homeline, then the TL is 8, because that's Homeline's TL. A character from a TL9 world has the advantage of access to higher-TL equipment (at least at the start), and might have ways to go back there for more, and might even be able to bring his TL8 friends along for a visit so they can pick up cool gadgets too, but if at the end of the day the party remains headquartered out of Homeline, then that's its TL.
Perhaps you also forgot that YOU are the one who started to argue about my second, hypothetical TL0 situation, which I only brought up to illustrate why someone might make the campaign TL something other than Homeline's TL.

So please drop the patronizing tone.

Quote:
Second if they are world hopping where they are 'hopping to' has no relevance to char creation and gear prices.
I never said it did. I said where you are based and what you have access to determines that.

Quote:
To take this example to absurdity the TL1 "caveman" should have a starting wealth of $20,000 TL8. Which is like $2.5 million TL1. What could a TL1 char possibly have worth $2.5 million and be transportable :)
First off, we were discussing TL0, not TL1.

Second, GURPS 4th edition $ do not change value across TLs. $1 at TL0 has the same buying power as $1 at TL8.

Third, if the campaign is TL8, and you can't imagine a TL0 character having much of any value, then the character is Dead Broke, Poor, or Struggling. It doesn't matter if the TL0 society would consider him well to do or not, because in a TL8 campaign, Wealth is relative to TL8.

Quote:
Once your team starts jumping then the local TL price "In Game" becomes the relevant measure. If they hop to a TL3 location, and want to buy a metal pot for cooking, its going to cost $200 local currency. They arent paying in TL8 currency so the TL cost thing doesnt come into play.
The "Tech Level and Equipment" rule has absolutely nothing to do with local prices. It is ONLY about starting wealth and equipment.

Quote:
It doesnt matter that they could get a far superior product in walmart for $12,
No one said it did.

Quote:
but once game play begins that TL conversion is just a way to figure out relative prices for the GM, not TL8 prices for the PCs.
Wrong. That "TL conversion" has only one function: to determine how much high-TL equipment you can afford to start with when your personal TL is higher than the campaign TL. Nothing else. Once your character is made, it is never used again.

Quote:
On the char sheet I would just list it as a metal pot maybe using a suggestion from another thread and list it ($200) so the we knew that it wasnt a TL8 price.
In GURPS 4th edition, $200 TL0 = $200 TL8.
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Old 05-02-2021, 01:24 AM   #10
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Default Re: [IW] A Question About Campaign Tech Level

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In GURPS 4th edition, $200 TL0 = $200 TL8.
Only in the way the symbol is used. In all other ways they are very different. At TL0 $200 is more "expensive" (as the average monthly wealth is $625) then TL8 (average monthly wealth being $2,600)
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