02-03-2023, 02:43 PM | #1 | |
Join Date: Jan 2022
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Request: Better Monster Signal:Noise or Information Design
Confession: I find DFRPG monsters difficult to run, especially the more complicated ones.
I'll analyze some examples from Dungeon Fantasy Monsters, and also from Nordlond Bestiary and point out what would make this easier for me to run. Draug (DFM23) It starts with 164 words of description where we find out the following game-relevant information
Then, we get a compact stat block and list of attacks (this is great) Then, we get the following trait list: Bad Smell; Bad Temper (12); Bloodlust (12); Combat Reflexes; Dark Vision; Dependency (Rest in own tomb 1/3 of each day or lose 1 HP/hour); Doesn’t Breathe; Doesn’t Eat or Drink; Frightens Animals; Hidebound; High Pain Threshold; Immunity to Disease; Immunity to Poison; Indomitable; Intolerance (The living); No Blood; Single- Minded; Temperature Tolerance 5 (Cold); Temperature Tolerance 5 (Heat); Unhealing (Total); Vulnerability (Fire x2). The following skill list: Axe/Mace-16; Brawling-16; Broadsword-16; Shield-16; Wrestling-14. and then unstructured notes: Quote:
The description is wordy. We get information about number appearing, but don't get information about what sort of treasure they might have. The entries (and this feels like the general theme), feel like an odd midpoint between "the information useful for running the monster" and "build out the monster as though it was a PC". DFRPG doesn't give us a full mechanical description of the Draug, but it also includes many traits that we don't need in order to actually run it.
Suggestion Trim down the trait list to: Bloodlust (12); Combat Reflexes; Dark Vision; Dependency (Rest in own tomb 1/3 of each day or lose 1 HP/hour); High Pain Threshold; Immunity (Disease, Poison); Indomitable; Unhealing (Total); Vulnerability (Fire x2). Here is the OSE Mummy, as a sort of parallel reference. Note how little information needs to conveyed in order to actually run it, and how the description is in bullet points and terse sentences, making it easy to reference at the table. The rest of the information about the mummy is implied or left to GM fiat. Shark (NB161) It starts with 163 words of description where we find out the following game-relevant information:
Then, we get a compact (ish; the control thresholds section is huge) section for stats, a list of attacks, and special abilities. Good! Then we get this list of traits: Acute Taste and Smell 3; Berserk (Feeding Frenzy) (6); Dependency (Water, 1d FP per minute out of water); Discriminatory Smell; Enhanced Move; Gills; No Legs (Aquatic); No Manipulators; Pressure Support; Slippery 3; Temperature Tolerance 5 (Cold); Vibration Sense (Water) And the following skills: Brawling-13; Stealth-12; Swimming-14; Tracking-14 Analysis The description is great info, but wordy. Missing: how many sharks are often together? What sort of treasures might a shark contain (no treasure)? Then traits:
Suggestion Trim down the trait list to: Enhanced Move [maybe]; Vibration Sense (Water). Include temperature tolerance if you really expect sharks to be making temperature checks for fatigue loss. Infer or making rulings about everything else. Make the feeding frenzy special ability self-contained. For comparison, here's the OSE Shark! |
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02-03-2023, 02:45 PM | #2 |
Join Date: Jan 2022
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Re: Request: Better Monster Signal:Noise or Information Design
Thoughts? Do other GMs feel overwhelmed trying to find important information in the long descriptions and trait lists? Do you find yourself using most of these traits as written? Do you roll for temperature-based fatigue loss for monsters?
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02-03-2023, 03:43 PM | #3 |
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: San Rafael, CA
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Re: Request: Better Monster Signal:Noise or Information Design
I personally am with you on this. Perhaps a bullet point critical trait list and then a text lock of the mostly obvious ones for those that like or need them.
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02-03-2023, 11:35 PM | #4 | |||||||||||||||
Join Date: Jun 2022
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Re: Request: Better Monster Signal:Noise or Information Design
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Notably missing form your truncated listing is "can speak but doesn't bother to", must lay senseless for 8 hours per day, and might ignore delvers who don't bother it. See that 'might'? That's what Bad Temper and Intolerance (The Living) is for, if the GM wants to randomly decide if the draug gets upset by the living walking past its accursed resting place. And another tidbit buried in the lead: The draug might be upset because of it's burial state (or in the case of a battlefield worth, their unburial state). Which could give a group a method of dealing diplomatically with a group of intelligent, angry, but capable of speaking undead. Granted they have get passed the Bad Temper and Intolerance first. Quote:
The entries (and this feels like the general theme), feel like an odd midpoint between "the information useful for running the monster" and "build out the monster as though it was a PC". Quote:
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Vamps are also quite often Unliving, but also quite often have to breathe. Quote:
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Every place you wrote "the GM can either infer it or make it up" is true, but GURPS operates under a very strong streak of "if it's not on the sheet, it's not there" for everything else, so it does so for NPC traits as well. Personally? I cut everything not directly needed in my notes, so for me a draug's entry might just be: ST: 22 HP: 27 Speed: 7.00 DX: 13 Will: 10 Move: 7 IQ: 10 Per: 10 HT: 15 Dodge: 11 Parry/Block: 12 DR: 6 (4 vs. crushing) Mail Shield DB +2 Axe (16): 4d+2 cutting. Reach 1. Broadsword (16): 4d+1 cutting or 2d+2 impaling. Reach 1. Punch (16): 2d+2 Grappling ST 23 Dark Vision, Fire x2, most Immunities, Unliving. And honestly, for most encounters, I don't even need anything other than HP, DR, attack and damage. As for your suggestions... that's great for you, but for anyone who wants all the Traits, it's bad. So it's better in the long run to let you just whittle off what you don't think is necessary instead of leaving a bunch of blanks for GMs who prefer to not be having to constantly fill in the blanks. |
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02-04-2023, 06:06 AM | #5 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Panama
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Re: Request: Better Monster Signal:Noise or Information Design
It have all that information because if it didn't it would be a terrible list of 2 dimensional monsters and enemies with no personality nor flavor.
As a GM you use what you need, but the book must have as much of it as possible. The wordy description, for example is the best component of the entire monster for me, their attributes and traits I fudge whenever I find it convenient. The advantages and disadvantages are part of the description to me, they are descriptive in a rules way for me. The treasure thing is not something all monsters have, each may have some,none or a lot, and many things in between. The GM decides the loot if any, but as this particular monster is obsessed with it there must be some or part of the encounter is that it is ****** off because it got stolen or lost. |
02-04-2023, 07:29 AM | #6 |
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: earth....I think.
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Re: Request: Better Monster Signal:Noise or Information Design
Also note, the very last page of DF Monsters is the index card size sheet you would print and use to keep track of the monsters, traps, and disease and poisons you are using for your adventure.
Those indexes are small, allowing you to only list what is important. I recommend actually using that. |
02-04-2023, 04:35 PM | #7 | ||
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Yukon, OK
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Re: Request: Better Monster Signal:Noise or Information Design
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You speak of whats right for you as if thats right for everyone else. It is less work for the GM to ignore things they dont think are relavant in the encounter than it is to add them if they come up during an encounter. I would much rather have fewer monsaters in these bestiaries than more that are cut down to mere stat blocks or simply have less flavor to them. Besides the points above various spells might be impacted by these traits, or use them to affect casting such as Shapechange and Summoning spells.
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02-07-2023, 06:05 PM | #8 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Request: Better Monster Signal:Noise or Information Design
I do agree that there are a lot of traits that don't actually need game mechanics, because NPCs don't need point scores and usually don't make self-control rolls, they just do whatever the GM wants them to do (it could in theory matter if a PC tries to provoke some disadvantage). For the draug, you could perfectly put well bad smell, bad temper, bloodlust, frightens animals, hidebound, intolerance, and single-minded into a description and leave it out of the stat block. You could probably do the same with dependency, doesn't eat or drink, and unhealing, as the first two mostly influence where you're going to encounter the creature, and the third only applies if you run into the same draug more than once.
That leaves Combat Reflexes; Dark Vision; Doesn’t Breathe; High Pain Threshold; Immunity to Disease; Immunity to Poison; Indomitable; No Blood; Temperature Tolerance 5 (Cold); Temperature Tolerance 5 (Heat); Unhealing (Total); Vulnerability (Fire x2). All of those traits might actually come up in a combat encounter. |
02-07-2023, 08:26 PM | #9 | |
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Re: Request: Better Monster Signal:Noise or Information Design
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Similarly, Bad Temper (12) + Bloodlust (12) + some illusions might allow you to set Draugr at each other's throats without having to fight them at all. The trait organization and formatting could use some revision, though. Bolding important traits like Injury Tolerance, Invisibility, Diffuse, etc. might help; ditto grouping traits by function, e.g. putting Callous, Odious Racial Habit (Eats Sentients), and Ugly right next to each other instead of using alphabetical order. |
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02-08-2023, 12:35 AM | #10 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Request: Better Monster Signal:Noise or Information Design
I get where the OP is coming from: the blocks of monster stats can be difficult to parse, to pick out what the GM needs now for the big fight. Fortunately, the descriptive text is usually a big (and very welcome) help on that front. Still, the GM who wants to properly game the monster as written probably has to scan that block several times, asking "Hmm, is there something I’m overlooking?" "Doesn't it have some resistance to what the PC’s trying to do?" "Does it also have..."
That said, I’m firmly in the camp of "list everything". I want to see the whole picture, all the traits that the designer envisioned for the creature, not just the combat highlights. The OSE example says it all to me. Here’s a mummy, a being possibly thousands of years old, who lived a life as (possibly, again) a ruler or wizard or someone extraordinary, now returning to the land of the living after millennia spent wandering the shadow world beyond the veil of death. It's a traveler through timeless ages, a near-immortal with an ancient mind, mystic knowledge, and a tale like none other... which the OSE entry offers as "here's another thing to kill; combat stats below." (I know, I know, it’s a dungeon game. No argument with those who just want the "how do we kill it" info; if simplicity is the goal, the OSE write-up does a fine job!) But even I want all the traits with nothing left out, I totally agree that the presentation can be a little daunting. Over here, I offer thoughts on making key traits stand out better on the page through color and/or bold text, but that wouldn’t be terribly helpful for the monster trait blocks. More helpful is putting the traits in neat bullet-point lists, as in Gaming Ballistic books’ monsters. That makes scanning quicker (at the expense of space). Even with that, though, the only organization is alphabetical, and that leaves it to the GM to mentally group traits in a way that really paints a clear picture of the creature (where not already covered by the descriptive text). Maybe a good solution would be to follow the way attacks are listed, each with its own descriptive block. In a (sort of) similar way, we could turn the block of traits into a handful of descriptive groups (as sjmdw45 suggests). As an example, here’s the stat block for the Demon of Old: Traits: Bloodlust (12); Callous; Combat Reflexes; Detect (Life); Doesn’t Breathe; Doesn’t Eat or Drink; Doesn’t Sleep; Dread (Holy objects; 5 yards); High Pain Threshold; Immunity to Disease; Immunity to Poison; Indomitable; Infravision; Lifebane; No Blood; No Brain; No Neck; Sadism (12); Temperature Tolerance 10 (Heat); Unkillable (Achilles Heel, Blow to vitals). Maybe this sort of organization would be more helpful: Fiendish: Demons are wantonly cruel and violent. Bloodlust (12); Callous; Sadism (12) Unearthly Senses: Demons are able to detect the warmth and the spark of life. Detect (Life); Infravision Supernatural Resistance: Demons resist most hazards and needs that mortals face, resist mental influence by most foes, and lack vulnerable hit locations other than Vitals—their Achilles heel. Doesn’t Breathe; Doesn’t Eat or Drink; Doesn’t Sleep; High Pain Threshold; Immunity to Disease; Immunity to Poison; Indomitable; No Blood; No Brain; No Neck; Temperature Tolerance 10 (Heat); Unkillable (Achilles Heel, Blow to vitals) Unholy Weaknesses: Demons give away their presence through a deathly aura, and are repelled by holy objects. Dread (Holy objects; 5 yards); Lifebane Infernal Quickness: Combat Reflexes When such descriptions overlap with the main descriptive text, the latter could be shortened. I kind of like it. Anyone else?
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