Steve Jackson Games Forums If I'm ×4 strong and my club is ×4 heavy, do I hit you with ×16 force?
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12-20-2019, 09:10 AM   #11
ericthered
Hero of Democracy

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
Re: If I'm ×4 strong and my club is ×4 heavy, do I hit you with ×16 force?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ericthered In gurps Terms, you're doing a little over x2 damage. Most of that is from ST. The weight increase grants a flat but not insignificant bonus. One of the low tech compendiums covers increasing weapon weight. But in general, st drives damage, and weapon weight is secondary.
To be specific, Low Tech Compendium 2: Weapons and Warriors, page 21.

Using specific numbers, a knobbed club from LT65 does +1 cr damage. If we scale it up for use by a SM+2 creature, it does x2.5 times the damage bonus, or +3 cr damage.

A ST 10 wielder of the club does 1d+1 cr damage. A ST 20 wielder of the original club does 3d+3 damage, and a ST20 weilder of the enlarged club does 3d+5 damage.

So most of the damage increase comes from improved ST, but some of it comes from a properly sized weapon.
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12-20-2019, 12:39 PM   #12
Ulzgoroth

Join Date: Jul 2008
Re: If I'm ×4 strong and my club is ×4 heavy, do I hit you with ×16 force?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rupert Well, the first problem is that the distance table implies that a thrower puts more energy into an object the heavier it is, yet the damage table implies that there's a point of peak efficiency, and above and below that weight ratio less energy is put into the object.
The first thing definitely isn't true. Weight and distance modifier have an inverse relationship over most of the range. Since range varies as V^2, that table indicates that changing the weight at constant strength generally doesn't change the energy at all.

The damage table does imply a point of peak efficiency. However, I would hesitate to assume that damage corresponds to energy.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rupert Then there's the way the distance table says doubling your ST lets you throw an object four times the weight twice as far (for eight times the energy).
Yes, that is questionable.
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 12-20-2019, 03:14 PM #13 zoncxs     Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: earth....I think. Re: If I'm ×4 strong and my club is ×4 heavy, do I hit you with ×16 force? Doubling your ST score quadruples your BL. Thus twice the distance because you are applying twice the amount of energy than before. ST 10 is BL 20, ST 20 is BL 80. __________________ Shen Shanlin Cryo Soldier Cris Jedi Zero Agent Chaos Octavian Kreel
12-20-2019, 03:39 PM   #14
Anthony

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Re: If I'm ×4 strong and my club is ×4 heavy, do I hit you with ×16 force?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth I don't think there's anywhere better to look for what the ST stat translates to in terms of actions faster than weight lifting.
The problem is that the throwing rules are nonsense.

Basically, throwing distance is equal to energy/weight * adjustment for angle, and energy is equal to force * distance (during the throwing process). This works out to (distance thrown) = (distance moved when throwing) * (force applied when throwing) / (weight) -- i.e. distance is based on arm length * BL/weight. There's some additional efficiency effects because muscle applies less force as its contraction speed increases, but in general a ST 20/SM 0 character should throw an 80 lb object (1xBL) exactly the same distance as a ST 10/SM 0 character would throw a 20 lb object. The GURPS throwing rules has the first character throw it twice as far.
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 12-20-2019, 09:32 PM #15 tbone     Join Date: Aug 2004 Re: If I'm ×4 strong and my club is ×4 heavy, do I hit you with ×16 force? My least favorite thing about throwing in the game: There's the BS system for throwing things, which (as noted above) isn't universally loved, but at least it's a generic system . . . which weapons then completely ignore anyway, each weapon using its own "distance = ST * X" rule. Bleah. On top of that is the lack of reasonable mods to throwing distance for AOA, skill, or movement (i.e., a running throw). Hardly the kind of thing that destroys the game, but a minor dissatisfaction all the same. __________________ T Bone GURPS stuff and more at the Games Diner: http://www.gamesdiner.com Twitter: @Gamesdiner | RSS: here ⬅︎ Updated RSS link | This forum: Site updates thread (occasionally updated) (Latest goods on site: No Big New Content of late. But my blogroll has returned to the site sidebar. And this page collects minor notices and side thoughts of the sort that used to go to Twitter before its fall.)
12-20-2019, 11:06 PM   #16
Rupert

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
Re: If I'm ×4 strong and my club is ×4 heavy, do I hit you with ×16 force?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth The first thing definitely isn't true. Weight and distance modifier have an inverse relationship over most of the range. Since range varies as V^2, that table indicates that changing the weight at constant strength generally doesn't change the energy at all.
That's not true - it's only a simple inverse relationship for things heavier than your BL. For objects less than your BL it's closer to one quarter the weight gives twice the range. I very much doubt that the point where someone throwing an object loses efficiency is anywhere near as high as their BL. I'd expect it to be closer to 1/4 BL, and something too fiddly to bother with in GURPS anyway, especially as it'd be related to Striking ST not Lifting ST, yet throwing weight ratios are off BL, which is from Lifting ST.

Also, weights under BL would be the more common things to be throwing in a non-supers game, so that should be where the system actually makes as much sense as possible, and it doesn't.

Something like [BL]/[Object weight] x 5 yards, capped at ST x 5 yards (numbers made up, subject to reality testing, etc.) would make more sense. Then adjust them for 2-handed throws, time taken, run ups, only caring about distance rather than trying to hit something, and so on.
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12-21-2019, 12:23 AM   #17
bert

Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Southern Sweden, possibly on an Alternate Earth
Re: If I'm ×4 strong and my club is ×4 heavy, do I hit you with ×16 force?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anthony The first thing you should do with the throwing rules is never look at them again.
Would you please elaborate on why?

12-21-2019, 10:52 AM   #18
Anthony

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Re: If I'm ×4 strong and my club is ×4 heavy, do I hit you with ×16 force?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by bert Would you please elaborate on why?
I already did. 2x ST should not let you throw 4x as much 2x as far, it should let you throw 4x as much for the same distance.
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12-22-2019, 11:44 PM   #19
bert

Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Southern Sweden, possibly on an Alternate Earth
Re: If I'm ×4 strong and my club is ×4 heavy, do I hit you with ×16 force?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anthony I already did. 2x ST should not let you throw 4x as much 2x as far, it should let you throw 4x as much for the same distance.
My apologies - I missed your follow-up post for some reason. Thanks!

12-23-2019, 09:24 PM   #20
AlexanderHowl

Join Date: Feb 2016
Re: If I'm ×4 strong and my club is ×4 heavy, do I hit you with ×16 force?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anthony I already did. 2x ST should not let you throw 4x as much 2x as far, it should let you throw 4x as much for the same distance.
Lifting ST and Striking ST are different though, so x2 overall ST is x16 increase in the energy available (x4 for the x4 increase in BL from x2 Lifting ST and x4 for the x2 increase in velocity from x2 Striking ST). A character with only x2 Lifting ST would throw x4 the weight the same velocity while a character with only x2 Striking ST would throw the same weight at twice the velocity.

 Tags damage, force, physics, size, strength

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