03-27-2023, 08:13 PM | #121 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity
My cat sees birds flying, and sitting on power poles, and she knows exactly what she'd do if she could fly.
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Rupert Boleyn "A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history." |
03-27-2023, 08:49 PM | #122 | |
Join Date: Dec 2022
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Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity
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Until you leap off the window sill and realize that ignorance of the law of gravity is no excuse!!! |
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03-27-2023, 11:27 PM | #123 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity
There's a lot of truth to this. And what's particularly ironic about it is that in 3e, Vehicles was largely disconnected from much of the rest of GURPS, and was essentially its own thing.
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03-28-2023, 08:50 AM | #124 | |
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Rome, Italy
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Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity
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Second the moddability in GURPS is a mess because of point costs and the HUGE numbers of manuals available. You got multiple options to create the same effects and those can become very complex very fast (something something Powers something). Even if such discussions are a huge reason for the traffic of this forum you must remember that, well... Meta-gaming and rules drill down are a fringe niche. Nobody starts a new rpg system to discuss its rules, the vast majority of players just want to be thrown into an adventure with cool characters and moments, any friction you put between them and the fantasy is going to leave a bad impression.
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“A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?” |
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03-28-2023, 09:42 AM | #125 | |
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity
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Modability in particular clearly corresponds to house-ruling, not to making complicated power builds.
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I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident. |
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03-28-2023, 12:30 PM | #126 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity
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In the GURPS-sphere the most comparable product would be DFRPG, and it has a similar organisation, albeit over several books rather than one huge tome. But GURPS as a whole can't be laid out like that - it doesn't have character classes, and the complexity is in what you add into the basic rules to make up your game's 'core' rules - rules that apply to everyone, because GURPS is not exception-based. Second the moddability in GURPS is a mess because of point costs and the HUGE numbers of manuals available. You got multiple options to create the same effects and those can become very complex very fast (something something Powers something). Even if such discussions are a huge reason for the traffic of this forum you must remember that, well... Meta-gaming and rules drill down are a fringe niche. Nobody starts a new rpg system to discuss its rules, the vast majority of players just want to be thrown into an adventure with cool characters and moments, any friction you put between them and the fantasy is going to leave a bad impression.[/QUOTE] And for the vast majority of players and characters, all of that stuff isn't necessary and isn't used. By the way, have you looked at what you 'need' to play D&D5 if you use the same criteria you're using here? You need a ton of books, because the new character rules are spread over them all (in a fairly obvious ploy to get players to buy everything). PF2 also has a ton of 'optional' material that people tend to treat as non-optional.
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Rupert Boleyn "A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history." |
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03-28-2023, 01:20 PM | #127 | ||
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity
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Quote:
Of course, modding is pretty advanced for most systems, and I think primarily appeals to gearheads anyway.
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GURPS Overhaul |
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03-29-2023, 01:08 AM | #128 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity
When the weight of your dice collection exceeds Basic Lift... that's commitment.
Speaking of weight: Quote:
I guess that's part of why I've never found GURPS "complex": dropping stuff from a detailed system to create a lighter system has always felt like an easy task. (It's going the other way that's hard.) (But... perception is what matters, and I suppose a whole lot gamers just don't take that view...)
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T Bone GURPS stuff and more at the Games Diner: http://www.gamesdiner.com Twitter: @Gamesdiner | RSS: here ⬅︎ Updated RSS link | This forum: Site updates thread (occasionally updated) (Latest goods on site: GLAIVE Mini levels up to v2.4. Update to melee weapon design tool, with more example weapons and commentary.) |
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03-29-2023, 03:11 AM | #129 | |
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity
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It's the difference between "We're using the core rules + x, y & z" and "We're using the core rules except x, y, & z". Maybe rebranding GURPS Lite as GURPS Core and GURPS Basic as GURPS Expanded could help perception. |
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03-29-2023, 04:31 AM | #130 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pioneer Valley
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Re: Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity
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Now yes: I'm one of the folks who've always believed that SJG dropped the ball badly when it came to presentation. The first section of the Characters book of 4th edition needed to be GURPS Lite, with a 32-pt header in flaming red letters, "This is all you need to run a fun game! All the rest are OPTIONAL RULES -- they enhance the game, but they're not essential!" But that ship's sailed; no mending it now.
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