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Old 05-10-2021, 06:20 AM   #71
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Cast out of HTH

Am I correct in my understanding of your tweaks that an illusion of a fire elemental could leave fire hexes in its wake and hurl fireballs?
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Old 05-10-2021, 04:03 PM   #72
zot
 
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Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
And here I've been following the thread thinking up house rules that could iron out some of the inconsistencies, only to see now how that could spoil the fun! Well, not to let all that contemplation go to waste:

INANIMATE ILLUSIONS - a category split off from "living" animate ones. Illusions of fire and walls, weapons, etc would fall under this heading. Treat them just like Images, insubstantial and unusable, with the exception they don't disappear when touched, but continue to lie or stand where they were placed, which could be useful in its own way. Everyone sees them, but they never interact with the environment. You walk into an Image of a wall, you go through it and it disappears. You walk into an Illusion of a wall, you go through it without feeling a thing, but it still appears to be there (possibly hiding an opening in a larger wall). You walk into a wall created ("summoned") by the Wall spell, or a real wall, you break your nose! An Illusion of fire only works like an Image of fire, doesn't burn anything, but won't disappear when touched, only when disbelieved.

DETACHED ILLUSIONS - when a "living" animate Illusion drops, throws, or shoots anything, that thing becomes an INANIMATE ILLUSION unto itself, as per the rule from above, except the animate Illusion that dropped it can pick it up again and use it if given the chance. If someone else tries to pick it up their hand just goes through it, but at least they now know the figure that dropped it actually is an Illusion. An illusory arrow goes through a target without hurting them, but the target may just think it was a near miss unless someone notices otherwise - you might flee a barrage of arrows before realizing no one is getting hurt. (The GM would still be rolling "to hit", concealing the results, and saying "Dang, I missed again!")

Lastly ANIMATE ILLUSIONS of animals and creatures would be fully substantial and interact with their environments just like the real thing, interacting with anything they touch, pick up, or hit just as if they were real. Even slimes. It's just that any weapons they came with are only substantial when in their own hands.

The rules would be much more internally consistent, but if it spoils your fun it would be better to just keep the original inconsistencies! :)
These ideas are pretty neat and almost seem to hint at metamagic to me.

What about two new talents for wizards: Persistent Image and Substantial Illusion for Inanimate Illusions and Animate Illusions?

Maybe there are other possible metamagical talents that could alter the behavior of certain sets of spells...
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Old 05-11-2021, 02:22 AM   #73
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Am I correct in my understanding of your tweaks that an illusion of a fire elemental could leave fire hexes in its wake and hurl fireballs?
You ask the best questions Anthony!

Well consistent with my version categories of "DETACHED ILLUSIONS" and "INANIMATE ILLUSIONS", then yes it could, but they'd be harmless fireballs and fire hexes because my tweak rules that inanimate illusions are insubstantial -- it would make for one heck of a show though! But as they would only be for show the intent of RAW is fully preserved.

Same thing would apply to the illusion of dragons' fire breath. My tweaked illusion of a dragon could appear to breathe fire, but it wouldn't burn anything, so except for putting on a show there's no contradiction with RAW. I myself would allow that something might appear to catch fire (say for example, a bush), just as if an Image of a fire hex had been created over it, but again it would be a harmless dramatic effect.

My proposals are suggested to tighten the rules, not loosen them.
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Old 05-11-2021, 02:49 AM   #74
Steve Plambeck
 
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Originally Posted by zot View Post
These ideas are pretty neat and almost seem to hint at metamagic to me.

What about two new talents for wizards: Persistent Image and Substantial Illusion for Inanimate Illusions and Animate Illusions?

Maybe there are other possible metamagical talents that could alter the behavior of certain sets of spells...
Thanks, I like that term (if not that other game that uses it :)

As a proponent for magical talents and new spells at most other times I should accept the challenge, but I'll take a "less is more" stance on tweaking Illusions in particular and Creation spells in general. Here I'm just advocating for consistency in how the existing rules get interpreted or explained, while making the minimum effective changes possible to accomplish that. Just more structure so all those borderline cases are less baffling. Not that anyone else should hold back trying anything, I just don't want to complicate my own arguments beyond comprehension.

Although I did once write a variant on the Illusion spell buried in my notes somewhere. It went something like "Fortify Illusion (C) - IQ 16. A wizard who knows this spell may, at the time it creates a regular Illusion, pay an extra ST cost, or it may cast this as a separate spell later on any Illusion in Creation spell range. The fortified Illusion cannot be disbelieved on a roll of 3 vs IQ, the attempt must be made on 4 vs IQ instead." I can't recall what ST cost I set for this, but I must have it written down somewhere. It was mainly meant to keep illusions in the game if there were a bunch of high IQ wizards in the fight.
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Old 05-11-2021, 10:07 AM   #75
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Default Re: Cast out of HTH

Illusions can't split so can you be killed by the poison of an illusion giant spider?
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Old 05-11-2021, 12:39 PM   #76
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Illusions can't split so can you be killed by the poison of an illusion giant spider?
I'd say yes. I've always considered an illusion as a focus for the beliefs of it's observers and powered by their innate magic. So going by Shostak's excellent bog post, I'd say that while illusions effect mind, not matter, the minds that observe them can sometimes involuntarily effect matter. The "sometimes" is a fudge for the GM to keep the players guessing and an excuse for not being consistent about it. :)

You're poisoned because you believe you are. You're hacked to bits inside your undamaged armor because your belief, focused by the illusion's sword, created your very real wounds.

An illusion of a dragon can pick you up and fly you away, as long as you believe in it. However, if deep down you *know* it's an illusion, then as a GM I'm going to make you take progressively easier rolls to involuntarily disbelieve, so that by the time you're a hundred feet up you're rolling 2d vs IQ and hoping for boxcars. Otherwise you're into the volcano.

An illusion of a torch lets you see in the dark. Your belief focused through the illusion gives you something like Dark Vision. Believing an illusion of a bridge gives you something like Flight (but see the dragon example above).
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