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Old 05-01-2021, 03:35 PM   #41
RobW
 
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Default Re: Cast out of HTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
And you can't checkmate Steve by 'begging the question'; who says illusions only hurt you because your mind made it happen?
SJ says the hacked to pieces person is "a victim of the wizard’s cunning and [their] own imagination"

Classic victim blaming but does seem to allow SJ to escape checkmate
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Old 05-01-2021, 04:12 PM   #42
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Cast out of HTH

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Originally Posted by RobW View Post
Should be the case but unclear whether Bayesian reasoning is a thing in Cidri
I meant it as a broad generalization. Really it comes down to who expects what. Guild wizards may or may not have some idea how many of their fellows know which spells, and they may or may not share that information, or ideas about what to do about it, with any friends they might have outside the guild. On the other hand, some mercenary captain might train his company to disbelieve when they see certain things (q.v. the Illusions section in the Death Test intro). And in other communities where they rarely tangle with magic, maybe hardly anyone would think to disbelieve anything. In some places where they've had a lot of illusions, people may be in the habit of trying to disbelieve things.
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Old 05-01-2021, 05:32 PM   #43
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Cast out of HTH

If evolution occurs in Cidri, surely Bayesian reasoning would be a useful tool. All these bell curve dice rolls must do pretty well with such reasoning.

Except, I suppose, that sometimes the evidence draws you temporarily to really stupid associations like, "On Tuesdays, a spear does triple damage to an earth elemental." So much randomness is bound to make overfitting a problem.
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:03 AM   #44
zot
 
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Default Re: Cast out of HTH

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Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
This would mean there is almost no reason to learn the rope spell. Rope and illusion both cost 2. The only difference being the illusion rope may be disbelieved.

I still think mindless things (slimes, zombies) should not be affected by illusionary fires, ropes, etc
Illusions cost double to maintain outside mega-megahex range but ropes, fires, walls, and shadow don't.
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:25 AM   #45
zot
 
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Default Re: Cast out of HTH

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Originally Posted by RobW View Post
These exceptional just-like-real illusions (fire, shadow, etc) and this bit of text: "But after the fight is over and the attacking illusion is gone, all the apparent injury to your gear will vanish – and there you’ll lie, hacked to bits inside your undamaged armor" -- were lifted straight out of Advanced Wizard, and have bugged me for 40 years now

cuz my mind can't hack me to bits

aaannd, if the illusion depends on the power of my mind as an observer can it actually kill me? Wouldn't it cease to affect me once I am unconscious?

checkmate SJ
From this description and the behavior of the creation spell illusions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ITL p138
If anyone can truly disbelieve an illusion, the knot of forces making it up will unravel and the illusion will vanish.
it seems that illusions are more than just figments of imagination, they are "quasi-real". Here are some things about illusions that are entirely objective, i.e. they are not subject any observers, they are are the same to all observers:
  • location
  • orientation
  • type
  • size
  • appearance
  • nature
  • capabilities

The caster can see through its "eyes" (which has been clarified to mean sense through its "senses") -- in some sense an illusion can "perceive" and the "perceptory view port" moves with the location and orientation of the illusion.

No matter how far away a person was when the illusion was cast, if they come near to its location, they will perceive it and potentially take damage from it, even if they teleported in from far away.

These things indicate that illusions are not just some kind of psychic suggestion that only exists in the minds of the victims; they have an objective existence apart from the observers.
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:46 AM   #46
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Cast out of HTH

That's all a pretty good analysis, zot, though of course there are other features that make it more than a bit fuzzy. There's some sort of objective component to illusions and yet they don't affect mindless stuff. That's pretty odd. The illusion really does exist in some sense, but to affect real stuff, the stuff must believe in it. Except for the noted exceptions, which somehow don't require a capacity to believe but still vanish when disbelieved.

Well, it's a mystery...
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Old 05-05-2021, 02:11 PM   #47
RobW
 
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Default Re: Cast out of HTH

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
These things indicate that illusions are not just some kind of psychic suggestion that only exists in the minds of the victims; they have an objective existence apart from the observers.
Yes thanks for the analysis, and we agree an objective existence of some kind is the only way to explain how an illusion could decapitate someone.

This raises even more questions though. Where does it stop? Examples:
  • If an illusionary fighter can decapitate you, can it throw you with judo?
  • If it can do a judo throw, does it lift you off the ground?
  • If it can lift you off the ground, can it lift you onto a ledge instead of throwing you back on the ground?
  • If an illusory fighter can lift you onto a ledge, can an illusory dragon simply fly off and carry you far far away instead of placing you on the ledge?
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Old 05-05-2021, 02:55 PM   #48
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Default Re: Cast out of HTH

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Originally Posted by RobW View Post
This raises even more questions though. Where does it stop? Examples:
  • If an illusionary fighter can decapitate you, can it throw you with judo?
  • If it can do a judo throw, does it lift you off the ground?
  • If it can lift you off the ground, can it lift you onto a ledge instead of throwing you back on the ground?
  • If an illusory fighter can lift you onto a ledge, can an illusory dragon simply fly off and carry you far far away instead of placing you on the ledge?
All good questions. My answers in this blogpost.
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Old 05-05-2021, 02:56 PM   #49
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Cast out of HTH

Illusions can explicitly trip but not lift. The victim loses their balance.
__________________
-HJC
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Old 05-05-2021, 03:11 PM   #50
RobW
 
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Default Re: Cast out of HTH

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
All good questions. My answers in this blogpost.
Thanks, if I'm reading correctly, your view is that illusions affect minds not matter. I take the same approach.

But if illusions affect minds not matter, they can't hack you to bits inside your unblemished armour. And RAW says this happens. So my questions are really for zot or others using illusions with objective reality.

I think zot's reading is pretty close to RAW, and minds not matter is not. But RAW raises so many questions for me. :)
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