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Old 08-13-2019, 10:14 PM   #41
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: A Question of Strength.

Yes, muscle memory is part of the cerebellum, just like most of what we would consider DX, though it is also reflected in the development of the related muscles, bones, tendons, etc. Honestly, tansferring any physical skills should be impossible because the associated structures in the cerebellum and the rest of the body do not transfer with the knowledge of the skill. Lifting should be just as non-transferable as Guns (Pistols) or Rapier, but the game allows it because of the rule of cool.

Now, I think that it would be interesting if only IQ-based skills transfered with the consciousness, with the character gaining a pool of CP equal to their other skills to purchase the non-IQ skills of their new body. After all, the body of someone with Lifting-20 will still have the muscles and muscle memory of the original consciousness.

In the case of a ST 8 character with HT 12 and Lifting-20, I do not really see any reason not to allow Lifting ST 20 for lifting, as they have spent 52 CP to get it. I think it is consistent with the rules for Jumping anyway. I would have a Digging skill though, based on HT, that would increase Lifting ST for digging, just for consistency.
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Old 08-13-2019, 10:18 PM   #42
Anthony
 
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Default Re: A Question of Strength.

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
Do you think muscle memory refers to the training of the muscles rather than of the brain? That's not what it means. It refers to how the brain learns to use its muscles. It would be retained were the brain transplanted into a new body.
Not entirely. Some of it is managed in the peripheral nervous system, and conditioning of muscle does matter, and of course physical skills are learned for a specific body, likely one would need retraining or at least adaptation. A world class weightlifter, put in the body of a 90 lb weakling, would have to be quite careful to avoid self-injury for quite a while due to the body not doing what he's expecting it to, but would likely be able to do more than the original owner due to understanding the mechanics of lifting.
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Old 08-14-2019, 12:06 AM   #43
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: A Question of Strength.

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
That would require a little bit of research and would depend on the type of lift being attempted.
Fair enough but that is beginning to sound like those theoretical best 100m times by a human, studies. Basically even the good ones come with a long list of caveats, and often have to redone when someone in real life does something (Usain Bolt is a good example here actually)

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The actual skill for lifting is making sure that you correctly execute the lift in a way that maximizes your available strength, it does not allow you do use strength that you don't have. Having more muscles isn't skill, it's just limited ST.
I see what you mean but if you can't access the full potential without increasing amount of skill then isn't that really the skill value adding to the base ability in order to access that theoretical maximum? I.e like pretty much how skills and stats work in GURPS as a combination of stat and skill working as a mutually supporting whole for a final expressible ability greater than either.

In GURPS the lifting skill doesn't work separately from ST after all, as the result is tied to BL. So it's inherently tied and thus limited by the underlying strength of the lifter. Which is why those little chaps in the lightest weight classes might have the same skill as the 105kg+ big boys, but they will never lift the same weight them

Just as someone with pistols +4 and DX of 8 won't shoot as well as someone with pistols +4 and a DX of 12. I.e. both stat and skill act as a limiting factor, just as they act as synergeistic parts of the combined whole
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 08-14-2019 at 12:25 AM.
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Old 08-14-2019, 12:25 AM   #44
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Default Re: A Question of Strength.

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I see what you mean but if you can't access the full potential without increasing amount of skill
You can -- if you get lucky. There's nothing fundamentally preventing you from doing things correctly, it's just not all that likely to happen by accident.
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Old 08-14-2019, 01:55 AM   #45
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: A Question of Strength.

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You can -- if you get lucky. There's nothing fundamentally preventing you from doing things correctly, it's just not all that likely to happen by accident.
Right but isn't that modelled in the system by getting a really lucky roll on a say default skill or low skill?

(and a more skilled lifter will need to get less lucky on their roll to get the same result because their skill is doing more of the work).

And I do think that ultimately even luck will only take the unskilled so far because as you say there is an increasing hard upper boundary in effect. It's just I think that bound is set by factor so base St and skill. Similarly luck will only take a ST8 lifter so far compared to say a ST12 lifter. All else being equal, and even if its not a ST8 lifter would need a lot of skill to match a ST12 unskilled lifter.
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Old 08-14-2019, 02:06 AM   #46
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Default Re: A Question of Strength.

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And I do think that ultimately even luck will only take the unskilled so far because as you say there is an increasing hard upper boundary in effect. It's just I think that bound is set by factor so base St and skill.
I think that the hard upper boundary is strictly based on ST, skill has no effect other than making you more likely to reach the boundary.
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Old 08-14-2019, 03:35 AM   #47
ErhnamDJ
 
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Default Re: A Question of Strength.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Honestly, tansferring any physical skills should be impossible because the associated structures in the cerebellum and the rest of the body do not transfer with the knowledge of the skill. Lifting should be just as non-transferable as Guns (Pistols) or Rapier, but the game allows it because of the rule of cool.
So their ability to aim and knowledge of how to compensate for the wind, distance, bullet drop, etc. would be lost if their brain were put into a different body? The swordfighter would lose their understanding of timing, positions, feints, etc.?

That isn't what I would have expected. Is that what the science shows? Would, for instance, a wrestler or jujutsuka lose their knowledge of takedowns, positioning, locks, and so on too?

And are you saying we have some reason to believe the cerebellum wouldn't be transplanted as well if we developed the technology for brain transplants?
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Old 08-14-2019, 03:50 AM   #48
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: A Question of Strength.

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I think that the hard upper boundary is strictly based on ST, skill has no effect other than making you more likely to reach the boundary.
I disagree with the strictly (as previous mentioned) but I certainly agree with it being the primary factor (also previously mentioned)

But leaving that aside in GURPS system terms is that not the effect that Stat and Skill gives, ie the bell curve just moves along a bit to make the statistically likely max lifts higher thanks to Skill?

Caveat being you have to limit max skill to get a maximum (but frankly unlimited or extremely high skills causes realism problems in general not just here).

I.e take the previously mentioned ST8 Skill +20 lifter. Do I think that will give unrealistic results, yeah absolutely! But IMO the issue is Skill +20 not the concept of Skill value adding to ST in the way the system currently works in abstract.

I guess this is really a question of what of you set the maximum at and thus where you max out skill to allow for it. Or just put a hard ceiling on max lift no matter if the a higher skill could give result that beat it (but see below in regards to the difficulty in setting that limit, and above in terms of the concept of it)


Here we get into the perennial stat normalisation debate, and splitting out systems in abstract and systems operating within imposed limits, and what both give as results, though.

Ultimately both these points might be down to a matter of perspective. When it comes to "realism" I only really care about system results as they happen, and where "realistic" inputs given "realistic" results. I'm less fussed about how the system works in all possible combinations of all possible inputs. (and for unrealistic inputs I'll just take results consistent with my sense of verisimilitude at the time!)

Although yes I realise defining "realistic" here is often going to be a matter of opinion when it comes to doing it at the games table.

-------

Either way as I said earlier to make this work as a game system you are still going to have to come up with some theoretical maximum lifts presumably for each GURPS ST rating based on real life theoretical maximums. Now you said already that would take some research. But as I responded via the point about theoretical fastest 100m sprints that actually gets very hard and more importantly is inherently based on conjecture and theory. Especially if you are doing one for each ST score even more so considering that the ST stat is a very broad catch-all rating for a lot of things and can itself be derived from different combinations of ST related advantages.

e.g say you have theoretical maximum over head press figure for a ST12 person that you are happy with. But would that value change for someone with Base ST 10 and Arm ST+2? Or what about Base ST14 and lifting ST-2.

That leaves aside real world factors like the difference between a 5'6" ST12 lifter doing an overhead press and a 6'6" ST12 lifter doing so. Which is the kind of real world factor those theoretical best possible result studies get into, i.e. I think this idea of trying to set absolute maximums basically becomes a can of worms v.quickly. Because by definition when you are talking about theoretical maximums the amount of contributory and thus potentially limiting factors that come into play increases (basically at that level every relevant thing matters). Which is why a lot of this work tend to involves as a starting premise taking the best real life attributes of different athletes and combining them in as realistic manner as possible, in an attempt to build the most perfect but still possible athlete for the matter at hand.
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 08-14-2019 at 07:16 AM.
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Old 08-14-2019, 06:51 AM   #49
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: A Question of Strength.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
So their ability to aim and knowledge of how to compensate for the wind, distance, bullet drop, etc. would be lost if their brain were put into a different body? The swordfighter would lose their understanding of timing, positions, feints, etc.

That isn't what I would have expected. Is that what the science shows? Would, for instance, a wrestler or jujutsuka lose their knowledge of takedowns, positioning, locks, and so on too?

And are you saying we have some reason to believe the cerebellum wouldn't be transplanted as well if we developed the technology for brain transplants?
As noted before, the cerebellum is only part of the muscle memory, the rest being the peripheral nervous system, the muscles, tendons, etc. The applicability of the knowledge of shooting pales in comparison to the practice of shooting. Without the other physical components, the body just could not perform at the expected level.

When it comes to brain transplants, it depends on the setting. In Get Out, they had to leave the cerebellum to allow the body to function at all. There is some concern about destroying the connection of the cerebellum to the brain stem, as the connections are more delicate and more numerous than the cerebrum to the cerebellum. Of course, that would make transplanting a brain into a clone body less attractive, but it is a ghoulish enterprise anyway.
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Old 08-14-2019, 09:43 AM   #50
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: A Question of Strength.

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Realistically, lifting skill is backwards: a success should allow you to lift your max, failure means you lift less than your max. This does mean high skill (which will usually succeed) is more consistent than lower skill, but that's actually pretty accurate.
That assumes you have a set maximum lift that you can never exceed and will reliably achieve if only you are completely trained. This is not true. For one thing what you can actually lift is actually influenced by the amount of pain you can endure, and the amount of pain you can endure is influenced by how much adrenalin is in your system.
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