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Old 08-16-2020, 08:56 AM   #31
Celjabba
 
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Default Re: Martial Arts Style Talent

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
From GURPS Horror: Ancient One ... Energy Reserve 300 (Cosmic; Accessibility, Only where Euclidean geometry is weak and when the stars are right, -80%) [180] (Horror p. 74).

That is the only mention of cosmic in the write up. So if only things that themselves are Cosmic can be used with a Cosmic power than what in the sam hill good does that 300 Cosmic Energy Reserve do? The position you are presenting doesn't hold and is not supported by the examples I know of.
I don't think anyone said you cannot use a cosmic ER to power non cosmic ability.
EDit : I stand corrected, Power p119 explicitly say that.

Only that the Power talent "Cosmic" only affect rolls for abilities with the cosmic power modifier, same as a darkness talent only affect rolls for abilities with the darkness power modifier, and the same with all duo power modifier-power talent.

Last edited by Celjabba; 08-16-2020 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 08-16-2020, 09:42 AM   #32
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Default Re: Martial Arts Style Talent

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Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
That is not a power with the "cosmic power modifier", it is the variant of modular ability named "Cosmic Power". (basic p71)

One of the worst name in the book, as it is extremely confusing !

Cosmic can be 3 separate things in Gurps :
-the variant of modular ability named "Cosmic Power"
-the power modifier "Cosmic"
-the rules breaking enhancement "Cosmic" (at the GM choice, it may also count as the power modifier "Cosmic" for free, but this is not mandatory)
Magery is in much the same state thanks to Wildcard Magery, Ritual Magery, and Magery (Ritual Path) all of which are different and work differently. Then there is the way Magery 0 now works (ie the same unless specifically modified per GURPS Thaumatology pg 20-21)

Whee ain't that fun?,
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Last edited by maximara; 08-16-2020 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 08-16-2020, 10:13 AM   #33
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Martial Arts Style Talent

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Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
I don't think anyone said you cannot use a cosmic ER to power non cosmic ability.

Only that the Power talent "Cosmic" only affect rolls for abilities with the cosmic power modifier, same as a darkness talent only affect rolls for abilities with the darkness power modifier, and the same with all duo power modifier-power talent.
Actually, you can only use ER (Cosmic) to power Cosmic abilities, as ER is always linked to a source. At a miminum, you would need the Cosmic (+50%) enhancement added to ER (Cosmic) for it to apply to multiple sources.
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Old 08-16-2020, 10:18 AM   #34
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Default Re: Martial Arts Style Talent

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Actually, you can only use ER (Cosmic) to power Cosmic abilities, as ER is always linked to a source. At a miminum, you would need the Cosmic (+50%) enhancement added to ER (Cosmic) for it to apply to multiple sources.
Just checked, and I was wrong.

Which does mean the ability in Horror meaningless. Weird.
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Old 08-16-2020, 10:22 AM   #35
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Default Re: Martial Arts Style Talent

By the way, Wildcard Colleges must be one of the worst purchases in the game. Either I can spend 24 CP for each College! at (IQ + Wildcard Magery) or I can spend 24 CP for each College at ([IQ + Magery] + 4). Unlike most traits, it actually get worse the more points you plow into the trait, as 120 CP can either give you ([IQ + Wildcard Magery] + 8) for College! or ([IQ + Magery] + 28) for College.
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Old 08-16-2020, 12:03 PM   #36
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Default Re: Martial Arts Style Talent

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By the way, Wildcard Colleges must be one of the worst purchases in the game. Either I can spend 24 CP for each College! at (IQ + Wildcard Magery) or I can spend 24 CP for each College at ([IQ + Magery] + 4). Unlike most traits, it actually get worse the more points you plow into the trait, as 120 CP can either give you ([IQ + Wildcard Magery] + 8) for College! or ([IQ + Magery] + 28) for College.
You are forgetting that Wildcard Magery eliminates the need for either Ritual Magic or Thaumatology skill from which Colleges must hang. "College skills have the core skill as a prerequisite and may never exceed the core skill." With no Ritual Magic or Thaumatology skill to limit College! the sky (or the points available) is the limit.

Also normally College! means you know every spell in the College at skill level rather then College - Prerequisite count that Ritual Magic (and Magic!) does and the RAW are nasty in that regard. Even with the option Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills provides you are still looking at a generous 1/2 prerequisite count. Though the default is that unlike Magic! every spell is at the wildcard's skill level.

For example, knowing Enchantment with Ritual Magery still means you have to pony up the points to eliminate the -10 Prerequisite count for the easiest spell in that College, Enchant (that is what that Prerequisite count column in Magic p. 223-237 is for) More over if I am reading B242 correctly Powerstone would still need to be raised from its -11 even if you knew Enchant at College level. There are 21 points right there. Enchantment! by contrast get you every spell at whatever skill level the wildcard is (15 at least obviously) and even with the 1/3 or 1/2 Prerequisite count option it is still cheaper in the long run.

I should mention there is a bit of a conflict regarding Magic! in Magic and Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills vs how Wildcard skills work in the Basic Set. Magic and Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills state "With that single wildcard skill, he can cast any spell he wants, at a penalty equal to the spell’s prerequisite count." while the basic set states "Wildcard skills include and replace all specific skills within their area." (sic)

Interestingly Wildcard Magery has a built in "Each spell defaults to the appropriate college skill at a penalty equal to 1/3 of its prerequisite count, rounded to the nearest whole number." (sic) This actual makes it more balanced than the way College! would normally behave though it is more generous then the 1/2 prerequisite count option of Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills.
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Last edited by maximara; 08-16-2020 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 08-16-2020, 12:56 PM   #37
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Default Re: Martial Arts Style Talent

Even with the requirement for Thaumatology, one could argue that College! is inferior to College, especially since Colleges default to Thaumatology-6. If we take the example of the 120 CP build, I can either purchase College! at ([IQ+Wildcard Magery]+8) or I can purchase Thaumatology at ([IQ+Wildcard Magery]+28) and receive every College at ([IQ+Magery]+22). Of course, you could use the optional rule that Thaumatology suffers from the Rule of 20 to artificially make College! a better choice, but it would just be manipulating optional rules to make one choice better than it would be by RAW.
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Old 08-16-2020, 01:23 PM   #38
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Default Re: Martial Arts Style Talent

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Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
Just checked, and I was wrong.

Which does mean the ability in Horror meaningless. Weird.
What is even weirder is that nowhere in the Variations is there something that the cosmic Energy Reserve could power nor any mention of anything that could use that Energy Reserve would have to have cosmic as well. And this is despite Cosmic as a modifier being mentioned on p. 30

In fact, everything in that book that does have Costs Fatigue is decidedly non-Cosmic.
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Old 08-16-2020, 01:47 PM   #39
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Default Re: Martial Arts Style Talent

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Even with the requirement for Thaumatology, one could argue that College! is inferior to College, especially since Colleges default to Thaumatology-6. If we take the example of the 120 CP build, I can either purchase College! at ([IQ+Wildcard Magery]+8) or I can purchase Thaumatology at ([IQ+Wildcard Magery]+28) and receive every College at ([IQ+Magery]+22). Of course, you could use the optional rule that Thaumatology suffers from the Rule of 20 to artificially make College! a better choice, but it would just be manipulating optional rules to make one choice better than it would be by RAW.
That is only one arrow in the quiver in College!'s as per RAW there are: "let casters attempt any spell within the college at full skill" (sic, Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills p. 16), Thaumatology's more restrictive 1/3 Prerequisite count (p. 75), or the option of "use prerequisite count divided by two, three (as suggested in GURPS Thaumatology), or more" "If that [default option] seems over generous" (Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills p. 16)

Though the way it is worded I don't think whoever wrote it realized that the larger the number divided by the lower the penalty would be. ie 1/3 is less then 1/2 not more.
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Last edited by maximara; 08-17-2020 at 06:01 AM.
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Old 08-16-2020, 06:41 PM   #40
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Default Re: Martial Arts Style Talent

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Originally Posted by Ejidoth View Post
I think there's a misunderstanding here. I wasn't talking about stacking talent and wildcard skills.

What I meant was more like this:

There are no martial arts style talents currently priced. There are martial arts wildcard skills. From the wildcard skills, we know that 12/level is considered a fair price for 'improve your rolls at everything in the style by +1', so it seems like a reasonable starting point for figuring out how to price an equivalent talent that improves your rolls at everything in the style by +1.
There's definitely room for argument there. After some of the debate here I'm leaning toward a combination of 1) this isn't really what talents are for, but 2) if it is allowed, 10/level is probably closest to fair. Unlike the wildcard guy you're not getting all the free techniques and, as has been pointed out, 15/level is probably too much for a DX-focused talent even if you do consider the reaction bonus and training speed buffs as part of the value of the talent.
This came up in the previous thread. The problem is that styles vary enormously in scope - Masters of Defense covers a lot more skills than some of the Karate variants. So Wildcard skills might be well priced for broader styles but overpriced for something like Boxing. Talents would be more easily scaled to the breadth of his style.

Pricing Talents is pretty simple. The Talent should include all the Skills of the style and possibly some of the optional skills. So a Talent for La Verdadera Destreza would include Expert Skill (Natural Philosophy), Mathematics TL2 (Pure) and Rapier. That's 3 skills or a 5 point/level Talent. Maybe toss in Body Language as well.
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