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Old 01-08-2020, 03:57 AM   #31
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Sounds like mostly "Make more rolls during combat thus slowing things down". Okay. Not what I prefer so I'll stick to hand waving it.
Not really more rolls, you are only keeping a track of when the grenade is and when it goes off

(although that is one more thing to keep track off in comparison to just saying it goes off at the end of the throw)

Don't get me wrong if a whole group of people start chucking grenades about then maybe, but how often does that happen.


FWIW I tend to track temporary stuff like that by marking on acetate sheets* that I can overlay the combat map as and when I need to.


*I can do several sheets for different things that are in evidence at different times (yeah sorry I'm that kind of GM)
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 01-08-2020 at 04:42 AM.
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Old 01-08-2020, 04:43 AM   #32
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

Grenades and by extension explosives do add a lot more rolls. Most of my games grind to a halt when things explode.

You need to calculate SEPARATE damage for each person in the blast. You roll dice once, but you need to figure out the damage for each person separately using formula of Damage/(3*<range from target to explosion in yards)

Even for 5 people thats' 5 separate calculations you have to do.

If then the explosion has shrapnel, you need to decide how many people are in the blast, roll 3d6 against 15 modified by range and stance for each person, calculate how many pellets each person is hit by, calculate hit locations of these pellets etc...

for 5 people, hit by 3 shrapnels, it's 4 3d6 rolls per person and 3 damage rolls per person for total of 35 rolls just to see if that group of people you grenaded dies.
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Old 01-08-2020, 04:58 AM   #33
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Meanwhile, operating a handgun or your rifle one handed while the grenade is cooking off is safe as long as you play it safe. The issues you outline get worse tenfold if the enemy storms your position and you're just hanging out with a grenade and can't do anything. Putting at least a few bullets into them, or going for AoA double so you can both toss and shoot, is an option.
For character lacking Ambidextrous, etc., this is a -4 to hit with one or the other. Basically, you're exposing yourself for nothing unless an exceptional character.
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Throwing items in GURPS is easy, you get a +4 to hit a specific hex (DX if you dont have throwing), and they don't go anywhere from that hex. You can aim your throws, all out attack, whatever!
If the ground is right, then sure, the grenade won't roll or bounce. However a lot of ground isn't like that, and it's entirely fair for the GM to require the Throw roll to be at a penalty to account for this, and to have misses go further than you'd like. As for aiming your throw, you'd better hope nobody is in a position to shoot you while you just stand out there.

Quote:
Next, the main killing agent of the grenade is the shrapnel. The example of me killing a guy with a grenade is just that - an example of using it to do direct damage.
That depends hugely on TL - vs people in even moderate Ultra-Tech armour the shrapnel is useless.
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I just ran a TL8 simulation vs another player, and grenade shrapnel won me the game by hitting the man's neck, leg and arm. Funny story, no body armor in High Tech protects neck.
Not quite true - the Stock (HU70) does. But yes, this is a problem with the listed armour sets, and it's not actually true of all modern armour, so if the GM is using armour taken from RL, some will have neck protection. Most modern military issue armour lacks face protection, however.
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And finally, it is a non-issue that the enemy tries to get away from the grenade. IN FACT, you want him to! Usually the enemy is behind cover, popping in and out to dish out punishment. Tossing a grenade behind his cover means he has to leave it to avoid damage, which buys you a few moments to maneuver, or exposes the enemy to counter-attack.
Most cover is more than a yard wide, so unless your opponent has made the dubious decision to hide behind a standing tree, he's got room to move. And yes, it buys you a moment or two, but it also cost you quite a few moments. Thus the grenade is a tool for certain specific circumstances.
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P.S.: Worth remembering that explosive damage is resolved against (Torso DR+WORST DR)/2. So it's effectively (2) as no TL8 gear can cover all hit locations with DR. M67 deals 9d crushing for average 31 damage. Assault Vest with plates only has 14 DR against that, so explosion under the feet is still lethal.
Note that vs a standing opponent who sees it, landing the grenade at thier feet in terrain perfect for grenade placement as you assume also means they can easily kick it away, and it only need move a couple of yards and the concussion is next to nothing.

As I said, at HT tech levels, they're useful tools, but at higher TLs they tend to fall behind armour quite badly.
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Old 01-08-2020, 05:00 AM   #34
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
The games (not Gurps) that saw the most grenades uses were actually Star Wars games, way back. Thermal detonator were (ab)used a lot.
I saw a lot in a Space Opera game, and a lot in a Spacemaster game. In the former they proved very good at dropping drives of cannon fodder, and in the latter a good way for characters with marginal combat skills to hurt and stun bad guys.
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Old 01-08-2020, 05:03 AM   #35
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Grenades and by extension explosives do add a lot more rolls. Most of my games grind to a halt when things explode.

You need to calculate SEPARATE damage for each person in the blast. You roll dice once, but you need to figure out the damage for each person separately using formula of Damage/(3*<range from target to explosion in yards)
B414 says you roll damage for each individual in the blast, optionally only rolling once for groups of NPCs.

Quote:
for 5 people, hit by 3 shrapnels, it's 4 3d6 rolls per person and 3 damage rolls per person for total of 35 rolls just to see if that group of people you grenaded dies.
Most grenades do not get that many hits, in my experience. But yes, grenades, like accurate automatic fire can make for a lot of rolling.
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Old 01-08-2020, 05:15 AM   #36
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Not really more rolls, you are only keeping a track of when the grenade is and when it goes off.
The extra rolls are for OODA loop. What Tactical Shooting calls Situational Awareness.

When my group first encountered this 'problem' we solved via extra Perception rolls... but if you're rolling to recognize grenades, why aren't you rolling for everything else? So now, suddenly everyone is making a Perception roll every turn, usually at penalty, and combats started to turn grindy and slow.

So I solved it by hand waving grenade timing. Pretty much solved the problem for almost everyone.




Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Grenades and by extension explosives do add a lot more rolls. Most of my games grind to a halt when things explode.

You need to calculate SEPARATE damage for each person in the blast.
I simplify that by using different coloured dice. Yes, it's not as fast as just counting the damage up once and moving on, but it's still one roll with an accumulated count as you count out from blast center.
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Old 01-08-2020, 06:59 AM   #37
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

Over my years of playign GURPS I've seen a little grenade use but nothing al all when compared to gunfire.

In SPECOPS we used them sparingly at first, perhaps due to the issues described about inaccuracy and inefficiency.
One mission however, inside a large building complex, one of the SEALs threw an unarmed smoke grenade into a room with hostiles, and when they ran out we shot 'em. He picked up the grenade and used it again during the same mission.
In later years, when we had gone dark and played ex-specops mercenaries instead, another character of mine used grenades generously when storming rooms. Mostly is was of no use if the rooms were empty of hostiles. On one mission, to retrieve or sabotage some stolen missile guidance chips the GM rules that my grenade into the warehouse ruined the chips, and we only got reduced pay for only achieving the secondary objective.

In Cliffhangers we had once just escaped from being bound up in a shack on a plantation on Java. Then enemy noticed this and threw a grenade inside. Everybody but one jumped out windows, but the last character picked up the grenade and tossed it outside. Then we all leapt to our feet and jumped inside again, only to exit once more after it went off.
Another time a character chasing a civilian possessed by a spirit-alien or whatever tossed a grenade ahead of them, but misjudged the speed vs. fuse time so it exploded when he was close to it, not the possessed guy. He did that twice.
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Old 01-08-2020, 02:07 PM   #38
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
Then enemy noticed this and threw a grenade inside. Everybody but one jumped out windows, but the last character picked up the grenade and tossed it outside. Then we all leapt to our feet and jumped inside again, only to exit once more after it went off.
And that right there is the problem with GURPS time to turn resolution and PC acuity and reaction speed, which my handwaving pretty well solves for grenade purposes.
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Old 01-08-2020, 06:51 PM   #39
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

The issue at hand here is that the GM was too generous with actions.

Usually to pick up grenade and throw it you need to:

1. Change Posture (Kneeling)
2. Ready maneuver to pick the grenade up
3. Throw maneuver to throw it

As you can see, if the grenade was cooked for at least 1 second, which it usually is since Ready Maneuver is taken to activate it and it is tossed on second turn, the grenade would explode and kill the man picking it up.

And escaping from a shack is usually a move maneuver to approach the window and another to jump through. So even if he threw the grenade and it didnt explode, his friends would need at least 1 more maneuver to get back inside of the shack.
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Old 01-08-2020, 10:54 PM   #40
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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As you can see, if the grenade was cooked for at least 1 second, which it usually is since Ready Maneuver is taken to activate it and it is tossed on second turn, the grenade would explode and kill the man picking it up.
That is correct for a grenade like a 'potato masher' that requires you trigger the timer separately. However, for Mills Bombs, 'Pineapple' grenades, M67 grenades and all similar ones this is not the case - the spoon flies off and the timer is started when you release the grenade, with no separate action being required.

Get grenade out, pull pin (can be done as part of the throw), throw.
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