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Old 01-07-2020, 12:47 PM   #21
RyanW
 
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by GWJ View Post
So what, grenades with 2-3 sec fuses are flying faster than grenades with 4-5 fuses? :P Specifically, I'm thinking about situations like this:

I throw grenade. The grenade lands at somewhere near my foe (1st question - it will sit on the ground or bounce and land farther?). How much time my foe has to react somehow, before the grenade explode?

And like this: I throw grenade with 2-3 sec fuse on some great range. How to check if the grenade will reach his destination or just explode in the air?
Judging by the throwing distance formula, a person can throw a grenade somewhere around 6*sqrt(ST) yards per second (about 19 yds/sec for a ST 10 person). That's the horizontal speed needed to reach maximum throwing distance with an ideal 45 degree throw. It's a bit of a spherical cow, but a rough number is better than no number.

As far as bouncing, I'd just use the scatter rules. A failed attack roll might have been off target, or might have not taken into account the bounce. If you feel the conditions make for bouncing that is particularly hard to account for, just give an attack penalty.
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Old 01-07-2020, 01:43 PM   #22
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Alright, it's the games I've been in and run. But if this is not the standard, I'd like to hear how other GMs kept PCs from just walking away from grenades (or deal with anyone they suspected were cooking one off).
I can only remember one occasion when a grenade was used by PCs who were known to be present by the enemy. We were clinging to the outside of a 40' container on a moving railway car, with the enemy inside it. At that point, a grenade was drawn, armed, cooked and thrown inside, which was pretty slow, but possible because there was no line of sight between any of the PCs and the opposition. That revealed to us that the sides of a container are not strong enough to stop grenade shrapnel, so we then resorted to firing blind with 5.56mm assault rifles through the walls, which subdued the opposition. Yes, this was an Action campaign.

All the other times we've used grenades were as traps, or by stealth.

I can't recall an occasion when I've seen grenades used against PCs, mostly because we try hard to happen to the opposition, rather than vice-versa.

Stand-up fights with high-tech firearms and grenades are completely unrealistic, and we never attempt them; if a new player came along who suffered from the delusion that melee should be able to compete with firearms a la fantasy games, we'd explain they were wrong, and let their characters die if they persisted.

Last edited by johndallman; 01-07-2020 at 01:47 PM. Reason: rephrase
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Old 01-07-2020, 03:48 PM   #23
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
But if this is not the standard, I'd like to hear how other GMs kept PCs from just walking away from grenades (or deal with anyone they suspected were cooking one off).
In general, some combination of cooking off before initiating an ambush, the occasional use of Situational Awareness rules from Tactical Shooting (Grenades are, generously, SM -6, which can make them difficult to notice even if they qualify for "in plain sight," which I would generally only grant if they see the person throwing it or the area it's thrown into is particularly clear), requiring DX rolls to pick up a grenade that's still moving (Such as on the first turn after it was thrown) or in terrain that makes it awkward (Grenade landing in light brush), and the unknown fuse length of the grenade (Do you risk taking the 2-3 seconds to grab and throw it?). For poorly trained or inexperienced fighters I'd probably have seeing a grenade thrown near them trigger the Cool Under Fire rules.

And to top that off, there are also the occasions where getting the enemy to move (And abandon their cover) is the objective. If they stay put, they get blown up. If they do move, you've flushed them out of cover and can cut them down in the open, especially if you've got a buddy waiting for some juicy opportunity fire or if it forces them to expose themselves to suppression fire.

I generally don't see a lot of grenade use in my games, since we've had fairly few modern/future combat campaigns and the small-scale firefights we've had are rarely the kinds of situations for frequent grenade use, but they're still quite useful if used correctly.
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Old 01-07-2020, 05:13 PM   #24
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
And the few seconds delay, in cinematic games, may also allow fancy moves like a brute jumping on the grenade to protect the others players, or someone catching the grenade and throwing it back (and, in one memorable case, seeing it thrown back again ... )
Last time someone tried to throw back a grenade in my game, it turned out to have a 1s fuse, so the would-be thrower lost their hand.
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Old 01-07-2020, 07:29 PM   #25
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
...I'd like to hear how other GMs kept PCs from just walking away from grenades (or deal with anyone they suspected were cooking one off).
Sounds like mostly "Make more rolls during combat thus slowing things down". Okay. Not what I prefer so I'll stick to hand waving it.
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Old 01-07-2020, 09:24 PM   #26
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

Two things to note

1) IRL, grenades are lethal, but they're not a tool of total genocide. GURPS in that sense repeats that. Grenades are used for their shrapnel, to displace the enemy from cover and to stun them.

GURPS fully develops that in High Tech 181

- Grenade explosion in enclosed space deals x2 damage, x1.5 if there are windows and doors to 'blow out'.
- Grenades force HT roll if the target received ANY damage that bypassed DR. On failure, the victim is stunned AND suffers penalty to hearing equal to his Margin of Failure for 20-HT seconds. Critical failure is either Deafness or Hard of Hearing
- Grenades force HT roll if the target was looking at the explosion AND the damage was rolled against it (you dont need to actually suffer any damage). On failure, victim is stunned AND suffers vision penalty equal to margin of failure. Critical failure is blindness

The workflow for the grenade is such:

1. Pull the grenade out with a ready action. This can be skipped with Fast-Draw (Grenade).
2. Remove the ring with a ready action.
3. Release the spoon with a free action - fuse activates
4. Throw the grenade after waiting 2-3 rounds
5. It explodes on your turn, timer-rounds away from releasing of the spoon.

All grenades travel towards their target under 1 second, but GM may rule that they scatter as needed on further turns.


2) IRL and in GURPS, grenades are not used like in Call of Duty, they're a tactical tool that must be deployed smartly.

On attack, especially attack on a room full of hostiles, one of the PCs readies a grenade instead of his weapon, pulls the pin out (Ready action). 1-2 rounds before the attack, PC releases the spoon to activate the timer (Free action), and throws the grenade when the fuse is 1-2 seconds before explosion.

Grenade's explosion marks the start of the engagement vs disoriented, damaged and maybe blind/deaf/stunned enemy.

On defense, the grenade is just thrown to force the enemy to cancel the attack and seek shelter. Alternatively, if defensive side has barricades to shield behind, they use them to directly kill/stun enemy forces, counting the fuse down as appropriate. Remember, you can still fire your gun as the fuse counts down, with appropriate penalties for off-hand and/or one-handed use. You can hold the grenade in off-hand as it ticks down, and throw it!

3) Because of aforementioned concepts, using grenades is a High IQ play. I personally saw grenades used thrice in my GURPS career, one of them was me in the form of an NPC, and one in form of a PC.

1. An NPC threw an impact fuse grenade at the PC. PC hurried to catch it, and they did - blowing their hand off. That was the end of the engagement for the PC.

2. A group of soldiers were assaulting PC positions. 4-man team. While 3 of the team were putting rounds towards the PCs, the fourth spent a few turns preparing the grenade.

When his turn came, he leaned from behind his comrades and tossed the grenade under the feet of PCs.

The PCs hurried to pick the grenade up, and it promptly exploded in the hand of one of them, tearing it off, sending shrapnel into everyone.

PCs lost that encounter.

3. We were fighting a boss-type character in heavy armor. While the rest of my team were shooting at the lad with their guns, I kneeled behind cover and prepared a grenade, tossing it when fuse ran out.

His armor had high DR vs pi and cut, but not crushing damage, so explosion right under his feet ended the fight.

Make of that what you will.
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Last edited by MrFix; 01-07-2020 at 11:05 PM.
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Old 01-07-2020, 11:26 PM   #27
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Remember, you can still fire your gun as the fuse counts down, with appropriate penalties for off-hand and/or one-handed use. You can hold the grenade in off-hand as it ticks down, and throw it!
That's a really bad idea. Firstly, if you're firing your weapon in any useful manner, you're exposed to incoming fire and if you get hit that grenade's not going anywhere, and as it's armed it's not your friend any more. Secondly, it's very easy to lose track of time while shooting, especially when caught up in a fire-fight, so you're making it very easy to lose track and have the grenade go off before you throw it, or while it's in the air.

'Cooking' grenades before throwing them is a risk already, without adding to it.
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His armor had high DR vs pi and cut, but not crushing damage, so explosion right under his feet ended the fight.
My experience is that getting a grenade in exactly the right spot is tricky, and if it's spotted people can almost always get a yard or two's distance, making the concussion damage far smaller than the base damage suggests it'd be. Grenades are great in TL5-7 games, where body armour is uncommon, but in TL8+ games their utility drops off rapidly against properly equipped soldiers (and at TL4- the grenades are junk, if they're available at all).
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Old 01-08-2020, 12:16 AM   #28
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Sounds like mostly "Make more rolls during combat thus slowing things down". Okay. Not what I prefer so I'll stick to hand waving it.
The stuff I posted generally only requires a single extra roll. Except it's not even an extra roll if you're already using the various realism rules from Tactical Shooting to make combat more realistic. And if you're going without the realistic rules, then yeah, you're going to get less realistic results.

Though I'll note that with the stuff I posted, you don't even need the realistic rules to potentially make running away from a grenade the wrong call.

MrFix is right; grenades are not some sure-fire "kill everything here" weapons. They are a tool, a single part of your tactical kit. They're going to be near useless in a theoretical infinite-flat-field combat, but they can be exceptionally effective tools if used right.

The only time I'd ever consider giving grenades an instant fuse is if the campaign is specifically aimed at having a cheesy action-movie feel, where throwing a grenade immediately produces a massive fireball that throws around every goon in the vicinity.
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Old 01-08-2020, 01:44 AM   #29
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

I want to pre-face my reply by saying that, contrary to popular belief, GURPS is not real life, and while certain IRL concepts apply to GURPS, not all of them do, for example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
That's a really bad idea. Firstly, if you're firing your weapon in any useful manner, you're exposed to incoming fire and if you get hit that grenade's not going anywhere, and as it's armed it's not your friend any more. Secondly, it's very easy to lose track of time while shooting, especially when caught up in a fire-fight, so you're making it very easy to lose track and have the grenade go off before you throw it, or while it's in the air.
'Very easy to lose track of time' may be in the heat of battle, for a combatant himself, but player most often will have a clear head and will consciously count down/note the 4-5 round timer, waiting for his chance to toss, hence it is a non-issue.

Meanwhile, operating a handgun or your rifle one handed while the grenade is cooking off is safe as long as you play it safe. The issues you outline get worse tenfold if the enemy storms your position and you're just hanging out with a grenade and can't do anything. Putting at least a few bullets into them, or going for AoA double so you can both toss and shoot, is an option.

Bottom line, holding a gun does not impede your grenade throwing capabilities, so you can just hold onto it for insurance.


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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
My experience is that getting a grenade in exactly the right spot is tricky, and if it's spotted people can almost always get a yard or two's distance, making the concussion damage far smaller than the base damage suggests it'd be. Grenades are great in TL5-7 games, where body armour is uncommon, but in TL8+ games their utility drops off rapidly against properly equipped soldiers (and at TL4- the grenades are junk, if they're available at all).
Throwing items in GURPS is easy, you get a +4 to hit a specific hex (DX if you dont have throwing), and they don't go anywhere from that hex. You can aim your throws, all out attack, whatever!

Next, the main killing agent of the grenade is the shrapnel. The example of me killing a guy with a grenade is just that - an example of using it to do direct damage.

I just ran a TL8 simulation vs another player, and grenade shrapnel won me the game by hitting the man's neck, leg and arm. Funny story, no body armor in High Tech protects neck.

And finally, it is a non-issue that the enemy tries to get away from the grenade. IN FACT, you want him to! Usually the enemy is behind cover, popping in and out to dish out punishment. Tossing a grenade behind his cover means he has to leave it to avoid damage, which buys you a few moments to maneuver, or exposes the enemy to counter-attack.

P.S.: Worth remembering that explosive damage is resolved against (Torso DR+WORST DR)/2. So it's effectively (2) as no TL8 gear can cover all hit locations with DR. M67 deals 9d crushing for average 31 damage. Assault Vest with plates only has 14 DR against that, so explosion under the feet is still lethal.

Max grenade roll is 54 damage, 18 if it's 1 yard away, so there's still a chance to do dirty to the guy you're blowing up.
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Last edited by MrFix; 01-08-2020 at 01:52 AM.
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Old 01-08-2020, 02:06 AM   #30
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Default Re: [HT] Grenades fuse

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Last time someone tried to throw back a grenade in my game, it turned out to have a 1s fuse, so the would-be thrower lost their hand.
I played for a while a superhero (well, super anyway ... hero is debatable) using grenades and teleportation... So lots of opportunities for grenades shenanigans. The grenade ping-pong happened in that campaign.

In non-super setting, I cannot remenber someone succeding at a grenade reverse thrown. Although a PC did try in a WW2 game, with unpleasant results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Sounds like mostly "Make more rolls during combat thus slowing things down". Okay. Not what I prefer so I'll stick to hand waving it.
You need to balance "realism vs complexity" in a game for tactical awareness, like every other options in Gurps.
But if you decide not to use situation awareness rolls, you shouldn't complain that the characters absolute awareness is unrealistic.
That said, hand-waving it is a fair middleground, as long as your player are ok with it.
A player state he is looking for trouble and/or have danger sense or another suitable advantage and/or there is good visibility and little ambient noise : he notice the grenade in time to react.
A player is AOA another target and/or concentrating on something and/or have a suitable disadvantage and/or visibility is poor and tehre is a lot of noise: he doesn't notice the grenade in time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Alright, it's the games I've been in and run. But if this is not the standard, I'd like to hear how other GMs kept PCs from just walking away from grenades (or deal with anyone they suspected were cooking one off).
In a WW2 game, grenades were mostly used against people in cover, both by and against players. If they walked away, they would lose that cover and get mowed down.

In an action/horror campaign, I used grenades against my players to clear a room before entry. They actually decided to stand their ground, only one reacting fast enough to dodge behind furniture.
Amazingly, they all survived with minor injuries and welcomed the opposite force with concentrated fire.

Players only used grenades twice in that campaign : once by stealth and from behind, the other with a player throwing a grenade inside a plane that was taking off. (yes, they stole the idea from a movie. can't remember which one.) And no, their opponents did not walk away ...

The games (not Gurps) that saw the most grenades uses were actually Star Wars games, way back. Thermal detonator were (ab)used a lot.

Last edited by Celjabba; 01-08-2020 at 02:10 AM.
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