Hypothetical: Thoughts on Regrowth after normal healing?

[Ragabash Moon]

So, I have a hypothetical question about taking Regrowth later in a campaign after injuries were left to heal normally. Say a character was in an accident and lost a leg. They have the lame (one leg) disadvantage. Later in the campaign, if they obtained the regrowth advantage and regeneration, would you allow them to get rid of the lame disadvantage (paying it off of course) or would that be impossible as the stump is long since healed before the regeneration power was obtained>

Sure, it could go either way since it's all fictional anyway, but what would you say in your games?

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

So, I have a hypothetical question about taking Regrowth later in a campaign after injuries were left to heal normally. Say a character was in an accident and lost a leg. They have the lame (one leg) disadvantage. Later in the campaign, if they obtained the regrowth advantage and regeneration, would you allow them to get rid of the lame disadvantage (paying it off of course) or would that be impossible as the stump is long since healed before the regeneration power was obtained>

Sure, it could go either way since it's all fictional anyway, but what would you say in your games?

The answer 'it depend' won't help you but I can see it going either way.

Watsonian answer :

Does the regeneration/regrowth work from a template (your DNA ?) or from your "mental picture" of yourself or is it just natural healing boosted ? That would change the outcome.

If the regeneration/regrowth fully take you back to your (theoretical) prime (for example also fixing balding or greying hairs), then I would allow it to regrowth the leg.

If after an injury at 5 pm, the regeneration/regrowth take your body back to what it was at 4:59 pm ... sorry, the leg stay missing.

Doylist answer :

Do you have the point to buy back lame ?

If yes it work.
If not, it doesn't.

[Polkageist]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

The answer 'it depend' won't help you but I can see it going either way.

Watsonian answer :

Does the regeneration/regrowth work from a template (your DNA ?) or from your "mental picture" of yourself or is it just natural healing boosted ? That would change the outcome.

If the regeneration/regrowth fully take you back to your (theoretical) prime (for example also fixing balding or greying hairs), then I would allow it to regrowth the leg.

If after an injury at 5 pm, the regeneration/regrowth take your body back to what it was at 4:59 pm ... sorry, the leg stay missing.

Doylist answer :

Do you have the point to buy back lame ?

If yes it work.
If not, it doesn't.

This is the correct answer from both perspectives, but hold on I need to know more about the Watsonian/Doylist dichotomy here, where did it come from because I love it

edit: Oh yeah, and if they didn't see a point change from the missing leg (i.e. a gameplay acquired disadvantage) then paying for Regrowth would fulfill the point cost justification of the decision at least.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Polkageist

This is the correct answer from both perspectives, but hold on I need to know more about the Watsonian/Doylist dichotomy here, where did it come from because I love it

It is commonly used in rpg forums but originated in various fiction fandom :

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...nVersusDoylist
https://fanlore.org/wiki/Watsonian_vs._Doylist

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by Polkageist

This is the correct answer from both perspectives, but hold on I need to know more about the Watsonian/Doylist dichotomy here, where did it come from because I love it

It comes from people who analyze the Sherlock Holmes stories. When trying to determine why something happens in a story, you can either look at it from an "in-universe" perspective where the stories are more-or-less factual narratives by Dr. Watson (hence, Watsonian), or from an "out-of-universe" perspective where the stories are works of fiction by Arthur Conan Doyle (hence, Doylist).

For example, over the course of the stories, Dr. Watson's war wound seems to mysteriously migrate between his arm and his leg. The Doylist explanation is that the author wasn't paying attention to continuity, but a Watsonian explanation could be devised that he took multiple injuries that flare up at different times. Similarly, in Star Trek, the Doylist reason original series Klingons have no forehead ridges is because the costume designers hadn't thought of them yet, but the Watsonian reason is [insert technobabble here]. Creating a good Watsonian explanation for things where the only obvious cause is Doylist is considered great sport in some circles.

[James P]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

Say a character was in an accident and lost a leg. They have the lame (one leg) disadvantage.

For me, the main question would be whether he built the character with one leg (ie, he got points for taking Lame) or he lost his leg, along the way (ie, Lame was added, but no points gained).

If he lost his leg, then Regrowth would just remove the Lame Disadvantage, while fixing him up. If he had been built that way, then I believe the Rules would imply the PC needing to pay back the points gained from Lame, before he could regrow.

I don't think I'd charge someone points for regrowing their leg, anyway, if it came much later on. Definitely not, if the regrowth came as a consequence of adventuring. (it never sat right with me, to charge people for lucky occurances, nor to penalize them because they don't have the spare points available to "buy" the thing they found/encountered). If he chose to acquire that new Advantage, however that occurs, I'd require him to buy off the Disadvantage, too.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

So, I have a hypothetical question about taking Regrowth later in a campaign after injuries were left to heal normally. Say a character was in an accident and lost a leg. They have the lame (one leg) disadvantage. Later in the campaign, if they obtained the regrowth advantage and regeneration, would you allow them to get rid of the lame disadvantage (paying it off of course) or would that be impossible as the stump is long since healed before the regeneration power was obtained>

Sure, it could go either way since it's all fictional anyway, but what would you say in your games?

At first blush, I would rule that having Regrowth doesn't affect the stump because it is healed, but if the stump were to take enough fresh damage, Regrowth would then kick in to grow the leg back, on the basis that Regrowth is in some way accessing the character's DNA, which presumably is baseline human and the Regrowth effectively says, "Right, there should be a leg here. Rebuilding to specification."

The question then becomes how much damage needs to occur before Regrowth can kick in. I tend to think of attacks causing 0 damage, for example, punches and kicks, as being bruises. Regrowth would fix the blood vessels and any minor scrapes and scratches but not trigger Regrowth. One hit point of damage might trigger Regrowth for small body parts such as a finger joint or a toe, but in general, I'd tend to require enough damage to potentially cripple the limb to trigger Regrowth. I might reduce the required damage depending on the description of the damage. You'd still be Lame (One Leg) whether you lost your leg at the hip, the knee, (or just your foot at the ankle?), but it should be somewhat easier to trigger Regrowth if you're only missing a foot rather than the whole leg.

There's also the question of just how fast the regeneration is. You may not even need to worry about Bleeding at three seconds, it is manageable at three minutes, and a problem that needs to be given consideration at thirty-six hours (three half-days). [Yes, I'm assuming three points of initial damage.]

Depending on the rate of Regeneration and how the character plans to cope with Bleeding, I'd allow him to attempt to create a fresh wound to trigger Regrowth, though I might also require a Will roll if he is making the wound himself, rather than getting a friend, or friends, to do it for him.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

Say a character was in an accident and lost a leg. They have the lame (one leg) disadvantage. Later in the campaign, if they obtained the regrowth advantage and regeneration, would you allow them to get rid of the lame disadvantage (paying it off of course) or would that be impossible as the stump is long since healed before the regeneration power was obtained

Regrowth never says anything about requiring an open wound to work, but if it did then putting a token wound on the stump wouldn't be that huge an impediment. You could add Trigger: Injury for -15% and just do a 1 HP pinprick to get a minute's worth of regrowthing.

If the question is "do I need regrowth at the time of severing to regrow, or can I get it later and retroactively un-permanent a permanent wound?" then I think GURPS Powers has a precedent for that.

P51:

Those who can only heal themselves have Regeneration (p. 70) or
Regrowth (p. 71). An Affliction (p. 39) with the Advantage enhancement can grant these traits to others, however, and serve the same purpose as Healing.

P71

It’s possible to use Affliction (p. 39) with the Advantage enhancement to give someone else Regrowth – but this is too slow to be useful unless the subject also gains (or already has) Regeneration.

P128:

Healing doesn’t permit attacks as such, but does allow Afflictions that are useful to healers (GM’s decision). Suitable enhancements are any form of Advantage that bestows Regeneration, Regrowth, or another healing related trait;

The implication seeming to be that if an allie's lost a limb, you can use Affliction: Regrowth to temporarily give them the ability the regrow the limb.

Of course, with the months-long regeneration cycle you'd need a very long duration affliction or else need to be constantly topping up the affliction's duration, unless you accompanied it with Regeneration which can speed up Regrowth.

You could get instant results probably cheaper by using the "Negated Disadvantage" enhancement, but that would mean whatever limb you temporarily gave them would go away once the Affliction ends.

If it's possible for Affliction: Regrowth to regrow previously-lost limbs then I don't see why you couldn't do the same if you later acquire the Regrowth advantage.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

At first blush, I would rule that having Regrowth doesn't affect the stump because it is healed, but if the stump were to take enough fresh damage, Regrowth would then kick in to grow the leg back, on the basis that Regrowth is in some way accessing the character's DNA, which presumably is baseline human and the Regrowth effectively says, "Right, there should be a leg here. Rebuilding to specification."

The question then becomes how much damage needs to occur before Regrowth can kick in. I tend to think of attacks causing 0 damage, for example, punches and kicks, as being bruises. Regrowth would fix the blood vessels and any minor scrapes and scratches but not trigger Regrowth. One hit point of damage might trigger Regrowth for small body parts such as a finger joint or a toe, but in general, I'd tend to require enough damage to potentially cripple the limb to trigger Regrowth. I might reduce the required damage depending on the description of the damage. You'd still be Lame (One Leg) whether you lost your leg at the hip, the knee, (or just your foot at the ankle?), but it should be somewhat easier to trigger Regrowth if you're only missing a foot rather than the whole leg.

Is it RAW that 0-point injuries are only bruises? I thought any kind of damage could leave a 0-point injury. Given how much 1 HP's worth of damage is in GURPS, there is a big gap between not being cut and having a 1-point laceration, not being burned and having a 1-point burn, etc.

As for the notion that the old (improperly healed) wound would require fresh trauma to trigger, if that fits the style of play and the setting, I can roll with that. However, I would just require all scar tissue be removed from the old injury. I mean, if I want a vaguely "scientific" trigger. If we're talking about a human suddenly having regrowth, we're probably not dealing with hard science restrictions here. Either way, this is for the slower forms of Regrowth. If you have Regrowth coupled with some level of Regeneration, you're already outside the realm of realism for a human, right?

Getting more general in my answer, if this gets rid of a Disadvantage for which you received points, or received in lieu of paying points/losing points elsewhere, the player needs to cough them up. If they don't have them, it will depend on the rest of the narrative. If it fits their character concept, they can opt to keep the Disadvantage and their Regrowth (for some reason), won't treat this old injury. Or maybe it does, but just so happens to do so at a pace that matches how much CP they are earning each session, CP that is going directly into paying down the Disadvantage. Similarly, there may be plausible replacement Disadvantages available, especially used in conjunction with "buying down" the amount over time.

Originally Posted by Plane

You could add Trigger: Injury for -15% and just do a 1 HP pinprick to get a minute's worth of regrowthing.

Just pointing out that 1 HP is far more than a pinprick in GURPS.

[Varyon]

This would be heavily dependent on the metaphysics of the setting (and possibly this particular flavor of Regrowth, if there are more than one in that setting). For some fictional examples, let's consider The Zombie Knight Saga and The Stormlight Archive. In the former, the regrowth Servants gain is dependent on a "template" of sorts that is generated when they first become a Servant. Someone who already had missing bits well before they died and were raised by a Reaper will still be missing them (ditto for those with scars, tattoos, etc), while any such they gain later are lost when healing. So, there's no way to recover in that setting - if you lop off the stump to try to get the arm to grow back, you just get the stump back. Oddly, while a Reaper can allow a Servant to continue to age (but can halt the aging process), they cannot allow a Servant to gain "wounds" like tattoos, scars, etc.

In The Stormlight Archive, the regrowth Surgebinders gain is largely based on their perception of themselves - the Lopen spent years with a missing arm (I believe it's indicated he lost it as a child), but upon gaining access to Surgebinding the first thing that happened was he regrew said missing arm (well, it took him a little while, considering he didn't have ready access to the large amounts of Stormlight required). This can go beyond just simple regrowth - one character who needed glasses from a young age "heals" his eyes when he becomes a Surgebinder, allowing him to do without. Of course, Kaladin is in many ways a broken man, and he cannot heal the slave brands on his head - indeed, his body goes so far as to reject the ink when he tries to cover it up with a tattoo (I'll note I haven't read the most recent book, however, so it's possible Kaladin has had some personal breakthrough that allowed him to erase the brands). Wounds, however, he has no issue healing from.


For my personal preference, I'd be inclined to allow Regrowth to restore a limb or other bit lost well before the character gained the Advantage, and would set my metaphysics to match (probably leaning toward the way things work in The Stormlight Archive). However, a limb would at the least have reduced DX, and possibly reduced ST, until the character gets used to it. Other bits would get similar treatment - a character with a regrown eye would be somewhere between No Depth Perception and normal for a time, for example. If there's a Disadvantage that needs bought off (that is, something the character had when initially created, or that he gained due to an exposed Secret, in some sort of sacrifice to gain some other Advantage, etc), I'd require buying it off slowly, again with the reduced performance while in the process of this.

Originally Posted by Otaku

Just pointing out that 1 HP is far more than a pinprick in GURPS.

Agreed, but how much more depends on what rules you're using. Using default Injury rules, 1 HP is pretty serious - take 10 such wounds and a typical person is at risk of passing out when doing anything strenuous, and 20 of them may well be fatal (60 are guaranteed to kill). Using Conditional Injury, 1 HP is still worse than a pinprick - even in the midst of combat with adrenaline flowing, it's enough to make you stumble (shock penalty, and a hit to the Face risks knockdown) - but really not much more than that (highly unlikely to accumulate).