Thaumatology Sorcery prohibitively expensive [Rant]

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Nedorus

Móira MacFullmage has Sorcerous Empowerment 5 [60].
She is able to learn spells with a maximum full cost of 60 (!).
She is able to improvise spells with a maximum full cost of 5 (!)
She is able to hardcore improvise spells with a maximum full cost of 60 (!)
She learns five spells:
Spell 1 (full cost 60) [12]
Spell 2 (full cost 50) [10]
Spell 3 (full cost 35) [7]
Spell 4 (full cost 20) [4]
Spell 5 (full cost 5) [1] (why she learns this is an open question, as she could improvise it which is no harder than casting a learned spell)

Mòira just spent 94 points on her sorcery abilities (not including talent which I ignore for now as it's not relevant for the discussion)

Neil O'Limited has Sorcerous Empowerment 9 (One College -40%) [60]
He is able to learn spells with a maximum full cost of 60 (!).
He is able to improvise spells with a maximum full cost of 9 (!)
He is able to hardcore improvise spells with a maximum full cost of 60 (!)
He learns five spells:
Spell 1 (full cost 60) [12]
Spell 2 (full cost 50) [10]
Spell 3 (full cost 35) [7]
Spell 4 (full cost 20) [4]
Spell 5 (full cost 5) [1] (again, why he learns this is an open question, as he could improvise it which is no harder than casting a learned spell)

Neil also just spent 94 points on his sorcery abilities (not including talent)

Alright, let's replace Spell 5 with one with a full cost of [10] so it makes more sense. What I'm suggesting would be the following.

Móira MacFullmage has Sorcerous Empowerment 5 [60].
She is able to learn spells with a maximum full cost of 60 (!).
She is able to improvise spells with a maximum full cost of 5 (!)
She is able to hardcore improvise spells with a maximum full cost of 60 (!)
She learns five spells:
Spell 1 (full cost 60) [12]
Spell 2 (full cost 50) [10]
Spell 3 (full cost 35) [7]
Spell 4 (full cost 20) [4]
Spell 5 (full cost 10) [2]

Mòira just spent 95 points on her sorcery abilities (not including talent which I ignore for now as it's not relevant for the discussion)

vs

Neil O'Limited has Sorcerous Empowerment 5 (One College -40%, Alternate Ability x1/5) [7.2], which rounds up to [8].
He is able to learn spells with a maximum full cost of 60 (!).
He is able to improvise spells with a maximum full cost of 5 (!).
He is able to hardcore improvise spells with a maximum full cost of 60 (!)
He learns five spells:
Spell 1 (full cost 60) [60]
Spell 2 (full cost 50) [10]
Spell 3 (full cost 35) [7]
Spell 4 (full cost 20) [4]
Spell 5 (full cost 10) [2]

Neil just spent 91 points (90.2 before rounding up) on his sorcery abilities (not including talent)

Red color represents a difference between the two; green represents a houserule (that Hardcore Improvisation lets you improvise spells with a full cost of 10x(Level+1)). If not wanting to implement any such houserule, instead replace that line with
He is able to hardcore improvise spells with a maximum full cost of 36 (!)

[Nedorus]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Neil O'Limited has Sorcerous Empowerment 5 (One College -40%, Alternate Ability x1/5) [7.2], which rounds up to [8].
He is able to learn spells with a maximum full cost of 60 (!).
He is able to improvise spells with a maximum full cost of 5 (!).
He is able to hardcore improvise spells with a maximum full cost of 60 (!)
He learns five spells:
Spell 1 (full cost 60) [60]
Spell 2 (full cost 50) [10]
Spell 3 (full cost 35) [7]
Spell 4 (full cost 20) [4]
Spell 5 (full cost 10) [2]

Neil just spent 91 points (90.2 before rounding up) on his sorcery abilities (not including talent)

Red color represents a difference between the two; green represents a houserule (that Hardcore Improvisation lets you improvise spells with a full cost of 10x(Level+1)). If not wanting to implement any such houserule, instead replace that line with
He is able to hardcore improvise spells with a maximum full cost of 36 (!)

OK, now I think I understand what you're aiming to achieve ... Tnx for the clarification...
Since we are using Alternative Abilities it doesn't matter which of the 'abilities' is our "most expensive" one, we just pay full point cost, the rest is 1/5th ...

The issue for me would be, that the point cost of Sorcerous Empowerment is intended to be the limit both for learned and 'hardcore improvised' spells. It's also intended to be the governing ability, the prerequisite for all the rest, not just another tick on the list of abilities. Reducing the cost of what is used as a cost limit without reducing the cost limit ... way too confusing for my brain (@_@)

Also, the reduction of 4 points seems low when compared to the 60 - (60x0.4)=14 points actually saved by RAW.

So I wish the original authors had based all the maximums off of the level of ... particularly since I want to use QN/QP based rolls for casting spells and am considering maxing out the level Sorcerous Empowerment with the value of QN...

But that is wishful thinking.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by Nedorus

Actually I think that most of the GURPS world books do just that.

They kinda don't though. Advantages/powers are still priced the same regardless of the campaign and some authors ahve really stretched and struggled to make things fit well into their new paradigm, you see this very well in old 3e Cyberpunk which waffles on using money or points...

I rather wish the setting books would drasctically change prices when they needed to, and not just in the "and now we'll add another UBC here because theis ability should be rarer" when instead they could be reducing costs on more common abilities.

I do it all the time, in horror games Nightvision's price is increased, as is Fearlessness, and certain Perks like Bravery (aka Rule of 15), Willpower is always split from IQ and bumped to 10/lvl. But you won't see things like that in the setting books.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The second is that you picked an outlier of a sorcery spell by going for not invisibility but invisibility as a beneficial affliction. Beneficial afflictions are the most expensive way to do anything whatsoever and that's because they are are an enormous force multiplier for the whole group.

"Vanilla" Magic's Invisibility spell is run like an Affliction, so it is an apt comparison. That's how you have to build it if you want it to work the same way.

[Nedorus]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

old 3e Cyberpunk which waffles on using money or points...

Oh, I had totally forgotten about this... I just re-read that section in Classic Cyberpunk but unfortunately it doesn't give any "calculation" that picks up on the issue of availability and legality impacting price ... The flat "1 point buys $5,000 worth of cybernetics" is really not enough for my taste.

I DO use a combined system (points at chargen and $ later). I translate 1 point to the difference of "cost of living" and "monthly income" at Status 0.

I also multiply by a factor depending on Legality Class (LC4-LC0) and availability of the item (Cheap / Mass Production - Ultra rare) which ranges from 0.1x (LC4 mass produced item) and 32x (LC0 ultra rare)
The first would be something you could get from the "Knock-Off-Store" while the later would be highly experimental military-grade Hyperware.

For Cyber- and Bioware I also charge for the actual medical procedure for stuff bought later...

This translates well for most stuff and gives me some tools to "wiggle" when prices seem ridiculous (up or down).

... back to the point ...
The whole point of this thread was to talk (ok, rant) about my inability to balance the magic system into what I already have for cyberware, vehicles and matrix-tec.

Thinking about the prices for *ware, I had the idea to bring down (point) costs of some of the more ridiculously priced spells by adding a "requires expendable materials" modifier. So certain spells may require you to spend some "Orichalchum" or "magical house dust" etc...
Now that I write this, visions from the past pop up in my mind ... I have not yet considered how to "implement" power- and spell-foki ... Eureka! this could be a solution

*of to juggle some numbers*

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Nedorus

I had the idea to bring down (point) costs of some of the more ridiculously priced spells by adding a "requires expendable materials" modifier. So certain spells may require you to spend some "Orichalchum" or "magical house dust" etc...

See Trigger, B115.

[Extrarius]

Originally Posted by Nedorus

[…]
Any ideas for pricing this "cannot improvise" or "can improvise only pre-defined"?
[…]

No improvisation is just not buying Sorcerous Empowerment and buying spells as regular AA - full price for the most expensive and ⅕ for the rest.

[Nedorus]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

See Trigger, B115.

Yes, exactly what I was thinking of. I can easily tailor this to make te spell as cheap or as expensive as I feel is right.

Originally Posted by Extrarius

No improvisation is just not buying Sorcerous Empowerment and buying spells as regular AA - full price for the most expensive and ⅕ for the rest.

Yeah, I realized that after Varyons earlier post and consequently re-reading the improvisation rules from TSOR. Tnx.

[Kage2020]

I know I'm rusty with GURPS, but after this spell I didn't know quite how rusty I was.

My first thought on this is why you're even bothering to reconcile the relative cost of achieving things between two different subsystems by points alone.

I know that their are fan conversions out there that use the skill-based systems and that they are, I'm sure, awesomely put together. Isn't this about using the one that is right for you?

I'm also not quite sure about trying to balance the different elements when, in GURPS terms, they're not going to be balanced. I think that it is permissible for their to be sub-optimal choices to be made. Right?

For me, and without arguing about specific builds, this is where I'm currently at when it comes to that setting with the elves:

• Sorcery/Spellslinging -- Sorcerous Empowerment*
• Adepts -- Physically-limited Sorcerous Empowerment* (arguable Limited Scope for some sport types, but certainly for Fourth World Adepts)
• Ritual Magic (including Summoning) -- Path Magic
• Decking -- Path Magic (except Technomancers; Sorcerous Empowerment [limited]) -- Note: Not done yet. I was actually going to post a thread asking for inspiration.
• Enchanting/Alchemy -- Metatronic Generators (I think--it's about the cash).
• Cyberware/Rigging--Points during character generation; money after.

*I need both to be modified by the local, and general, magical field strength.

Perhaps, though, I'm deliberately misinterpreting stuff in the "design" version of sticking my fingers in my ears. Personal vs. general spells slapped me up the side of the head recently. ;)

In my mind, I don't see it as a problem if GURPS (Sorcery) doesn't allow something that would be otherwise disallowed in that other game. I consider this as a feature, TBH.

Edit: FWIW, I feel that I was responding less to the in-depth game mechanics/crunching and more to this:

Originally Posted by Nedorus

Thinking about the prices for *ware, I had the idea to bring down (point) costs of some of the more ridiculously priced spells by adding a "requires expendable materials" modifier. So certain spells may require you to spend some "Orichalchum" or "magical house dust" etc...
Now that I write this, visions from the past pop up in my mind ... I have not yet considered how to "implement" power- and spell-foki ... Eureka! this could be a solution

*of to juggle some numbers*

[Nedorus]

@Kage2020 Sent you a PM ... maybe we can exchange ideas / experiences with our conversions...

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Nedorus

The issue for me would be, that the point cost of Sorcerous Empowerment is intended to be the limit both for learned and 'hardcore improvised' spells. It's also intended to be the governing ability, the prerequisite for all the rest, not just another tick on the list of abilities. Reducing the cost of what is used as a cost limit without reducing the cost limit ... way too confusing for my brain (@_@)

This is the result of using Modular Abilities as the core ability.
Modular Abilities let you swap powers around.
Learned spells are just alternative abilities so the core power is always the cap, regardless of what it is. That is they get a 1/5 discount but cant cost more than the core power before that discount.
Hardcore improvised spells are simply a case of "Using Abilities at Default" and also based off the power being defaulted.

The whole thing is easier to understand if you use another ability as the core or most expensive one.
Warp or Jumper as the core let you use hardcore imrovisition and learned spells with no change. You just list the softcore improvisation that Modular Abilities provide.