Brawling once again

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

The Summon Myrmidon spell apparently brings a warrior competent in all weapons, but without Brawling.

ITL 122 gives him a (ST 12) punch of 1d-2 and a HTH attack of 1d-1 and a dagger attack in HTH of 1d+1

Wizard Boardgame rules page 19 gives a punch damage of 1d-3
Melee Boardgame rules page 18 gives a HTH attack of at most 1d-2 while the dagger is 1d+2

ITL bare handed damage is one more point than Melee/Wizard, plus talents, while the dagger is nerfed down a point.

So just use the ITL122 table as the HTH damage while adjacent strikes are one point less.

That's a solution, but at a cost. It nerfs unarmed HTH for everyone. That is deadly, when my only complaint is not about HTH across the board, but brawling.

I mean, a UC II guy also does as good as a dagger (even with Skarg's suggested fix), but I'm okay with that, because it's a difficult specialty to commit to. It's an IQ 7, one point talent that does away with the need for daggers to compete in HTH that has me concerned.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Skipper2921

My interpretation is that both Brawling and Carousing seem to apply to bars and taverns, or situations where PCs are "in an evening of revelry". You have to be in a non-lethal brawl to use the Brawling talent. Somewhere along the line it is determined that the fight is "just a fist fight". In this case nobody goes below strength zero, unless someone uses Dirty Fighting and takes it away from non-lethal (but remains a brawl).

If it is not a brawl, no brawling talent.

I kinda get that, but it's a bit odd to be good at fighting only when it doesn't really matter all that much. It would explain why brawling is a one point talent.

I haven't had a just for kicks fistfight in my game yet. Now, that's partly on me, I guess, for not using taverns enough, but still...

The text explicitly refers to bar fighting. I didn't take that to mean the skill isn't transferable to the battlefield.

[hcobb]

Unarmed Combat II allows up to a +3 damage bonus while making the brawler hit less often for less damage. If they get into HTH the martial artist will pin the brawler, if she doesn't throw him first.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Unarmed Combat II allows up to a +3 damage bonus while making the brawler hit less often for less damage. If they get into HTH the martial artist will pin the brawler, if she doesn't throw him first.

Yes, UC II is good, but expensive. I'm fine with it.

[hcobb]

How do you fight dirty against a spider?

[larsdangly]

I like the way Brawling talent works. The fact that being really good at brawling is better in the real world than having an introductory knowledge of martial arts (UC1) but can't match the benefits of truly proficient martial arts mastery (say, UC IV) is both perfectly realistic and in line with fictional tropes. And giving brawlers increased damage but not much else also makes sense within the context of TFT combat rules. The only thing I have questioned is whether the total damage done by a brawler is too high, but that is adequately addressed, in my mind, by ignoring that old hold-over rule from Melee that fighters get a HTH damage bonus.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by hcobb

How do you fight dirty against a spider?

Yeah, and/or how do you "not fight dirty" against a spider? I don't think you do. Dirty fighting only makes sense in contrast to "friendly brawling", which is at least two levels softer than "trying to kill someone with your bare hands". So, not really consistent with adding damage to the usual amount of damage done by warriors trying to kill each other in lethal combat.

The description of what the Brawling talent is, reads:

Experience with unscientific bar fighting, friendly or otherwise.

And according to ITL p. 126, that would mean half-damage non-lethal attacks.

Originally Posted by larsdangly

... The only thing I have questioned is whether the total damage done by a brawler is too high, but that is adequately addressed, in my mind, by ignoring that old hold-over rule from Melee that fighters get a HTH damage bonus.

I don't think that has ever been the rule. The not-really-defined word "fighters" is interchangeable with "figures" there. If you take the sentence in the context of the previous mention of non-HTH unarmed attacks, it seems to me quite clear it's about a +1 for being in HTH, not for being a "fighter."

[hcobb]

It isn't half damage: "Also, any figure attacking with bare hands may elect not to kill. His blows do full damage ..."

[Skipper2921]

I'll go back to high school wrestling. There were guys that were really good at putting a finger in places that made you flinch; advantaged gained! I'm not sure that skill translates against armor or a well-trained combat veteran in a fight that, from the onset, is clearly understood to end in the death of a combatant. I think the same can be said of being better than average at landing a punch to the kidneys.

If you take the two talents Brawling and Carousing together, the discussion tends to favor that they are special circumstances around their use. The +2 damage is the minor impact. If I have an IQ11 character with Brawling and Carousing, that character has a 97% chance to keep a brawl friendly. If brawling is all defined as any altercation, this character can make the most surly, viscous, lying, sneaky, rotten, orc fight friendly 97% of the time. I can make the point that a friendly brawl is without weapons "Foes will fight back dirty or grab weapons if they can". Now the surly, viscous, lying, sneaky, rotten, orc does not use weapons 97% of the time.

This has some hyperbole, but now I'm going bigtime. If I take my Brawling Carouser into Dragon Hunt, I have a 97% chance to make Shadreth the revenant Dracowight, whose only purpose for existence is to extract revenge on Alberic, fight friendly. And what does "friendly" mean in this case, Shadreth will only trample until all are unconscious?

There just seems to be too much of advantage to apply these two skills to all situations. I believe the way out is to define when brawling occurs. I like adding Skarg's idea of announcing the "taking prisoner" and add the talents.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by hcobb

It isn't half damage: "Also, any figure attacking with bare hands may elect not to kill. His blows do full damage ..."

Oh... whoops! Yes, dang I'm used to remembering practically every TFT rule detail, but I forgot about that part. My mistake.

I guess that leaves me with a few rule intent questions about the Brawling talent:

* Is Dirty Fighting for +2 damage possible in a fight that wasn't "friendly" before? The rule says using it changes the brawl to unfriendly, and presumably lethal combat was never "friendly" so that implies to me it only works on people who think you're going to attack them in a "friendly" way. So it wouldn't be usable in serious combat, or against spiders, etc.

* Is Brawling's +1 damage on a Punch meant to stack with the usual +1 for unarmed attacks in HTH? (i.e. Perhaps the "You do one extra hit of damage with bare hands in either HTH or regular combat." is not meant to stack with the usual +1 damage for everyone in HTH combat. This would mean daggers still do 2 more damage in HTH than brawling attacks.)

* Is the Brawling talent even meant to do anything in lethal combat rather than a brawl?

* Is a broken bottle converted into a dagger really supposed to be as good as a dagger in lethal combat? (It seems to me very unlikely that it would be - seems to me it would be less effective, prone to breaking, and have a much harder time getting through armor than a steel dagger.)