Distant Blow and Picks

[Sindri]

How does the distant blow spell interact with the rules for picks getting stuck? I lean towards letting it negate the picks weakness personally but I'm interested in hearing what others think.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Sindri

How does the distant blow spell interact with the rules for picks getting stuck? I lean towards letting it negate the picks weakness personally but I'm interested in hearing what others think.

My first impulse was to say that it can get stuck as long as the spell is still active, but that this is avoidable by letting the duration expire or by using the normal rules for early cancellation, but given the text, "the force of the blow is transmitted magically," (4e Magic p 144) it's pretty arguable either way IMHO.

[vierasmarius]

I'd tend to agree. The text of Distant Blow indicates that it can only transfer strikes, and is useless for grappling, entangling, garroting, etc. In this context, I'd treat the "sticking" property of a pick as a form of entanglement, which would thus not be part of the attack. This does suggest that Distant Blow could be a popular enchantment on a pick, letting the wielder strike more rapidly in close or ranged combat.

On a side note, I do love the Movement College. So often overlooked, but so many great spells with adventuring applications.

[chandley]

Given it specifically calls out that the blow is transmitted magically, and that other magical properties are not transmitted, Id say the pick cant stuck so long as its being used on the subject of the Distant Blow spell.

If that seems TOO abusive for some reason, give the spell ST 15 (Like Dancing Object) for purposes of pulling a pick out. If even that seems to generous, charge 1 FP for ST 2, 2FP for ST 7, 3 FP for ST 16, 4 FP for ST 32, for one second and let the mage roll against THAT ST. (Thats using the BL given by Distant Blow's prereq, Apportation). But that all seems excessive.

[Sindri]

Nice to know my interpretation wasn't totally off the mark.

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

My first impulse was to say that it can get stuck as long as the spell is still active, but that this is avoidable by letting the duration expire or by using the normal rules for early cancellation, but given the text, "the force of the blow is transmitted magically," (4e Magic p 144) it's pretty arguable either way IMHO.

Yeah it's quite arguable. Getting rid of a major limitation of a weapon shouldn't be done lightly but on the other hand what is getting stuck? There isn't actually an invisible double. I guess maybe the magical transmission of the force might get stuck? That would make sense if the force is acting like the weirdly solid force that RPG magic systems like I suppose.

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I'd tend to agree. The text of Distant Blow indicates that it can only transfer strikes, and is useless for grappling, entangling, garroting, etc. In this context, I'd treat the "sticking" property of a pick as a form of entanglement, which would thus not be part of the attack. This does suggest that Distant Blow could be a popular enchantment on a pick, letting the wielder strike more rapidly in close or ranged combat.

On a side note, I do love the Movement College. So often overlooked, but so many great spells with adventuring applications.

Interesting. I hadn't thought of the only delivering blows angle.

It would be a terrible thing to overlook the Movement College. It has great spells.

Originally Posted by chandley

Given it specifically calls out that the blow is transmitted magically, and that other magical properties are not transmitted, Id say the pick cant stuck so long as its being used on the subject of the Distant Blow spell.

If that seems TOO abusive for some reason, give the spell ST 15 (Like Dancing Object) for purposes of pulling a pick out. If even that seems to generous, charge 1 FP for ST 2, 2FP for ST 7, 3 FP for ST 16, 4 FP for ST 32, for one second and let the mage roll against THAT ST. (Thats using the BL given by Distant Blow's prereq, Apportation). But that all seems excessive.

If it seems too abusive I'd just have the wielder either use their own strength or cancel the spell as they choose. After all the damage is determined by the wielders strength. The problem for most pick wielders isn't really "My pick is stuck and I don't know if I can get it out" it's "My pick always gets stuck but with a ready action I can generally unstick it" and getting rid of that action significantly improves their speed in attacking.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Sindri

If it seems too abusive I'd just have the wielder either use their own strength or cancel the spell as they choose. After all the damage is determined by the wielders strength. The problem for most pick wielders isn't really "My pick is stuck and I don't know if I can get it out" it's "My pick always gets stuck but with a ready action I can generally unstick it" and getting rid of that action significantly improves their speed in attacking.

The extra Ready action required is partly mitigated by the fact that extracting the pick inflicts half the injury that it did going in. So it's potentially inflicting full damage 3 times per four rounds, compared to twice per four rounds like other weapons that require a Ready. Also, the pick only sticks if it actually hits, and as we know the hit rate tends to be 50% or less for equivalently-skilled combatants, so it's not as limiting as ST‡ weapons. Sticking can have its own benefits too; IIRC the upcoming Technical Grappling will discuss "grappling" options that can be performed using a pick.

All together, I don't view a pick sticking into its target as such a huge drawback, and thus I don't think it's unbalancing to have a magic spell remove that feature in limited situations.

EDIT: Reviewing the Pick rules, they leave something to be desired. It would make most sense if the difficulty of extracting a stuck weapon was based on how much damage it dealt, and perhaps what sort of armor it encountered. Let's see... a ST 10 man deals 1d+1 imp with a one-handed Pick, with each +1 ST adding +1 damage. It would take reality testing, but I could see rolling ST+(6-rolled damage), though maybe ignoring damage that's blocked by flexible armor (since it is less likely to bind the pick). An average blow could be extracted some 75% of the time, but a high damage roll or All-Out Attack would be more difficult. If that seems too rough, and you feel there should be a greater benefit for high ST, make it something along the lines of ST+(4 - 1/2 rolled damage). The damage bonus for Weapon Master or a Fine Pick could probably be left out of this equation, increasing injury without making the weapon harder to recover. And of course, using two hands should add a ST bonus.

[bcd]

Originally Posted by Sindri

Getting rid of a major limitation of a weapon shouldn't be done lightly but on the other hand what is getting stuck?

Interestingly, I have taken to thinking of picks getting stuck as an enhancement rather than a limitation. This is because the opponents we tend to face have hideously overpowered defences and so actually getting a hit in is something of a miracle. The general strategy has become to always make sure you have effective skill 16+ to get the ~9% chance of critical hit. A pick getting stuck has come to be seen as a bonus "hit" on the following round doing half damage. With opponents who not only have active defences from hell but also routinely roll vs 13+ to avoid knockdown/stun/death and so basically always take multiple hits to take out it has become a priceless feature. :-)

Of course, the pick-based PCs have enough ST to reliably unstick their picks or things might have been different.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by bcd

Interestingly, I have taken to thinking of picks getting stuck as an enhancement rather than a limitation.

Yeah something I was wondering about in this thread as well. Getting a pick stuck in something unless you have already killed it is often a good thing.
Free bonus damage plus a way to grapple your foe.
Long as I am posting, I dont see a problem with Distant Blow doing damage and not getting stuck. Its kind of a wash and in any case its magic not a powers as magic thing so it just works as described.

[Sindri]

The getting stuck rule is helpful sometimes. It's mostly disadvantageous when fighting people you can one shot anyway or if you lose the pick or don't have it in hand when you need it because it's stuck in an enemy.

The other aspect is that in addition to a balancing mechanism the getting stuck rules provides mechanical interest. Though distant blow at least doesn't totally remove it like graceful weapon and quick-draw do to whatever they apply to.

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

EDIT: Reviewing the Pick rules, they leave something to be desired. It would make most sense if the difficulty of extracting a stuck weapon was based on how much damage it dealt, and perhaps what sort of armor it encountered. Let's see... a ST 10 man deals 1d+1 imp with a one-handed Pick, with each +1 ST adding +1 damage. It would take reality testing, but I could see rolling ST+(6-rolled damage), though maybe ignoring damage that's blocked by flexible armor (since it is less likely to bind the pick). An average blow could be extracted some 75% of the time, but a high damage roll or All-Out Attack would be more difficult. If that seems too rough, and you feel there should be a greater benefit for high ST, make it something along the lines of ST+(4 - 1/2 rolled damage). The damage bonus for Weapon Master or a Fine Pick could probably be left out of this equation, increasing injury without making the weapon harder to recover. And of course, using two hands should add a ST bonus.

Yeah those rules could use some improvement. It's also weird that no one, no matter how strong and no matter what material they are attacking, can extract a pick with less than a second.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Sindri

Yeah those rules could use some improvement. It's also weird that no one, no matter how strong and no matter what material they are attacking, can extract a pick with less than a second.

I could see allowing someone to trade an Extra Attack (whether from the advantage, Rapid Strike, or All-Out Attack) for a Ready maneuver to extract it. I could also see a light attack (ie, Defensive) providing either an immediate retrieval at a penalty, or a bonus to a following attempt. There could be an Extra Effort option that either gives a free Ready, or a bonus to the ST roll. Of course, in a cinematic game I'd allow these sorts of things for ST‡ weapons too.