Weapon Masters/Trained by a Master and All-Out Attack(Double)

[tfaal]

Is there ever any reason for those with Weapon Master or Trained by a Master to use a straight up All-Out Attack(Double), instead of an All-Out Attack(Determined) with Rapid Strike? By my reading it seems that the former gives you no defenses and two attacks at no bonus, while the latter gives you no defenses and two attacks at +1. (+4 determined, -3 Rapid Strike with discount). It might make sense to use All-Out Attack(Double) in conjunction with Rapid Strike to get [0, -3, -3] attacks, but the benefits of that over the [-2, -2, -2] you get with a three-attack Rapid Strike and an All-Out(Determined) seem like something only a coplete munchkin would care about.

Another question I have is how to roleplay the difference between Rapid Strikes with All-Out(Determined) and All-Out(Double)'s. With All-Out(Double), you sacrifice defensive position for speed, which makes sense. With Rapid Strike, you sacrifice accuracy for speed, which makes sense. But then when you combine that with All-Out(Determined), you sacrifice accuracy for speed, then sacrifice defensive position for accuracy, in a way that's somehow more effective than just sacrificing defensive position for speed to start with. How in the world does that make sense?

[gilbertocarlos]

AOA determined give bonus to one attack only, so, if you use AOA for two attacks, you have two attacks: +0/+0, but if you use for AOA determined with 2 attacks you will have: +1/-3.

[tfaal]

That's what I thought too, but Martial Arts pp. 126-127 say: "All-Out Attack (Determined), (Long), and (Strong) give no extra attacks, but their benefits apply to all attacks with that maneuver."

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by tfaal

That's what I thought too, but Martial Arts pp. 126-127 say: "All-Out Attack (Determined), (Long), and (Strong) give no extra attacks, but their benefits apply to all attacks with that maneuver."

Youve paid 30-ish points for the benefit, which could get you +4 to skill as well. WM/TBaM apply to all chosen actions as MA says.

Its not a loophole so much as a consequence of the cinematic abilities chosen.

[cmdicely]

I've long thought that rather than different All-Out Attack Options , the Determined effect (+4 to attack) ought to be the effect of All-Out Attack, and the other options should be combat options that involve taking a -4 penalty to attack rolls. AoA (Double) is a bit weird in that respect since it essentially duplicates an existing an existing option that takes -6 for some characters and -3 for others, so depending on whether you like the existing tradeoff of AoA (Double) better than the existing tradeoff of Rapid Strike you could dump Double as a special option and either keep Rapid Strike where it is at -6/-3, or make it -4/-2.

Conceptually, the same thing works with Committed Attack (so "Strong" becomes a combat option that gives +1 or +1 per 2 dice at -2 to attack, or +2 or +1/die at -4 to attack=, and "Long" costs -4 to Attack, and Feint is just an example of Rapid Strike exercising the option to trade attacks for feints.)

Making (or merging, in the case of Double) maneuver options into regular combat options, IMO, makes GURPS simpler and more consistent.

[vicky_molokh]

If you're doing, say, a triple Rapid Strike, with TbaM, you strike at -6/-6/-6. With AoA:Determined, you raise that to -2/-2/-2. With AoA:Double, you can do -6/-6/-6/-0. With AoA:Determined and a quad RS, you can get -5/-5/-5/-5.

Sometimes you might prefer one or the other.

[tfaal]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

I've long thought that rather than different All-Out Attack Options , the Determined effect (+4 to attack) ought to be the effect of All-Out Attack, and the other options should be combat options that involve taking a -4 penalty to attack rolls. AoA (Double) is a bit weird in that respect since it essentially duplicates an existing an existing option that takes -6 for some characters and -3 for others, so depending on whether you like the existing tradeoff of AoA (Double) better than the existing tradeoff of Rapid Strike you could dump Double as a special option and either keep Rapid Strike where it is at -6/-3, or make it -4/-2.

Conceptually, the same thing works with Committed Attack (so "Strong" becomes a combat option that gives +1 or +1 per 2 dice at -2 to attack, or +2 or +1/die at -4 to attack=, and "Long" costs -4 to Attack, and Feint is just an example of Rapid Strike exercising the option to trade attacks for feints.)

Making (or merging, in the case of Double) maneuver options into regular combat options, IMO, makes GURPS simpler and more consistent.

I could not agree more with this. The whole concept of combat options being "embedded" in maneuvers seems wonky to me. *Especially* extra effort options, which have this strange Venn Diagram of things they can apply to.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by tfaal

I could not agree more with this. The whole concept of combat options being "embedded" in maneuvers seems wonky to me. *Especially* extra effort options, which have this strange Venn Diagram of things they can apply to.

OK, while I don't necessarily agree, let's play:

Let's say that you can trade -2 to ALL your own active defenses for +1 to an attack, and then you can:

* Keep the +1 for accuracy
* Trade -2 for +1 per die damage, or -1 for +1 per 2d
* The usual -2 for -1 to your foe's defenses

You may also trade
* Take -2 to hit for ONE extra step.
* Option: uncap that, and say it's -2 to hit for every extra step, or -2 to hit for every 20% of your encumbered Move. This may be unbalanced. It makes a full Move-and-Attack -10 to hit; but say you combine this with -10 to your defenses for +5 to hit, it makes a normal person's 100% Move -5 to hit.

The usual AoA (Double) would then be subsumed into the Rapid Strike rules.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

If you're doing, say, a triple Rapid Strike, with TbaM, you strike at -6/-6/-6. With AoA:Determined, you raise that to -2/-2/-2. With AoA:Double, you can do -6/-6/-6/-0.

The comparison I use is:

AoA: Determined and Rapid Strike triple: -2/-2/-2
AoA: Double and Rapid Strike: -0 and -3/-3 (or -3/-3 and -0)

The former is fine, but the latter is better if you need one especially well-aimed or especially Deceptive or whatever attack. My players tend to use that latter one to swamp defenses and follow it up with a really nasty aimed shot.