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Old 01-05-2012, 02:31 PM   #31
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Kuroshima View Post
Toss in Altered Time Rate and (if you accept ATR) it's not that hard to see the Flash do it in (way) less than a second. However, ATR doesn't grant you extra turns, it grants you extra maneuvers, and as the notes on Whirlwind Attack state, the two are not the same (I personally think it's an unnecessary complication), given that a WW attack takes your whole turn, even if you could have multiple maneuvers. Thus even if you could punch your target a hundred times a second (via ATR 100), you need to wait for your next turn to do a grapple/lock/throw
Makes no sense for WW attack to be ATR-independent. WWA is Extra-Attack-independent, because it is essentially a super-extra-attack-technique. But if for your character a subjective turn passes, you can WWA for each subjective turn. Only actions which depend on another's reaction are ATR-independent (e.g. communication).
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Old 01-05-2012, 02:37 PM   #32
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

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Even if you have ATR99 (which is "all" you need to punch 100/second ;) and you throw as your first maneuver for that second, you'd "realistically" have to wait for some of those maneuvers before he hits the ground and you can use Stamp Kick on him.
...or use a damaging throw (MA75), using the rationale that you are pushing them all the way down as fast as you need to slam them down*. And then, "realistically," you should be greatly increasing damage due to the greatly increased velocity of impact.

But, when it comes to physics and ATR, here there be dragons.

*If that does not jive with your interpretation of the damaging throw rules, call it a throw followed by a "kiss the carpet" attack (MA118).
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Old 01-05-2012, 02:54 PM   #33
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Makes no sense for WW attack to be ATR-independent. WWA is Extra-Attack-independent, because it is essentially a super-extra-attack-technique. But if for your character a subjective turn passes, you can WWA for each subjective turn. Only actions which depend on another's reaction are ATR-independent (e.g. communication).
Oh, I agree. However

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martial Arts, p. 89
If you make a Whirlwind Attack, it’s all you can do that turn, no matter how fast or skilled you are.
Emphasis in the original.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Martial Arts, p. 126
Altered Time Rate (p. B38): Each level of the Altered Time Rate advantage bestows one additional maneuver per turn
Emphasis in the original

Personally, I nuke that interpretation, and flash with ATR 99 would be able to do 100 whirlwinds per second. He paid 9900 points for the priviledge.
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Old 01-05-2012, 03:00 PM   #34
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

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Oh, I agree. However



Emphasis in the original.




Emphasis in the original

Personally, I nuke that interpretation, and flash with ATR 99 would be able to do 100 whirlwinds per second. He paid 9900 points for the priviledge.
ATR definition + original Extra Attack definition + original Full-Turn Manoeuvre definition = Rage. :)
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Old 01-05-2012, 03:34 PM   #35
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

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Originally Posted by kenclary View Post
.
*If that does not jive with your interpretation of the damaging throw rules, call it a throw followed by a "kiss the carpet" attack (MA118).
Unfortunately to me the Damaging throw rules under Judo seem pretty clear about it being next turn. though I don't know why as I can see an all out attack of Grapple + Throw.
But the Kiss the carpet/door/whatever rules work and I never noticed but you can get your wrestling bonus in there too!

I am thinking that might count as a Thorws from Locks kind of things and eligible for that kind of damage bonus. If someone reading this thread thinks its worth discussing.
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Old 01-05-2012, 04:10 PM   #36
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

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Unfortunately to me the Damaging throw rules under Judo seem pretty clear about it being next turn.
The damage from a Judo Throw happen at the same time as the throw. This is on your turn if you did a parry on your previous turn. If you do a grapple and throw I see nothing in the rules preventing you from doing those with AoA(Double), Rapid Strike, or Extra Attack+Attack.

The key phrasing here is that on your turn, you do the throw, which is either an attack (after a parry), or an attack resolved as a Quick Contest (for the offensive grapple). In either case, though, Judo Throw is an attack.

Quote:
though I don't know why as I can see an all out attack of Grapple + Throw.
But the Kiss the carpet/door/whatever rules work and I never noticed but you can get your wrestling bonus in there too!

I am thinking that might count as a Thorws from Locks kind of things and eligible for that kind of damage bonus. If someone reading this thread thinks its worth discussing.
Hrm. I'll have to look at that. I don't see anything problematic here on first blush.
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:00 PM   #37
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
If you do a grapple and throw I see nothing in the rules preventing you from doing those with AoA(Double), Rapid Strike, or Extra Attack+Attack.
But why?

MA80:
Quote:
You may also throw a grappled foe. Instead of parrying first, you must grapple your opponent. On a later turn, try to throw him.
MA118:
Quote:
You can try this on any turn after the one during which you applied the
lock.
After a Grapple you can throw on a leter turn, after a Lock you can thow on any turn after the one.
I don't really see the difference.
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Old 01-06-2012, 04:34 PM   #38
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

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Originally Posted by alimantando View Post
But why?

MA80:


MA118:


After a Grapple you can throw on a leter turn, after a Lock you can thow on any turn after the one.
I don't really see the difference.
Thats b/c there isnt one. I missed the line on MA p. 80.
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Old 01-06-2012, 07:43 PM   #39
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

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Thats b/c there isnt one. I missed the line on MA p. 80.
I've always seen the 'next turn' wording as problematic. As evidenced by Fairbairn, there are real world styles teaching one to follow up a move within the same second. Sure, for some moves, it makes less sense, but for others, the reaction time of the foe is of no importance. When trying to apply an Arm Lock, the less he can react from the time you grasp him and until the time you have a secure lock, the better for you.

It doesn't make sense that preternaturally fast supers with Altered Time Rate or even just extremely skilled mortals are prevented from doing a grab and throw/lock/etc. in one turn instead of two. When a normal person is using Rapid Strike to do so, he is already at a -6 penalty. That is already enough to make an expert as bad at something as a diligent dabbler or beginner. There is no need for a flat-out denial of the attempt at all.
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:09 PM   #40
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Default Re: [Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

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It doesn't make sense that preternaturally fast supers with Altered Time Rate or even just extremely skilled mortals are prevented from doing a grab and throw/lock/etc. in one turn instead of two. When a normal person is using Rapid Strike to do so, he is already at a -6 penalty. That is already enough to make an expert as bad at something as a diligent dabbler or beginner. There is no need for a flat-out denial of the attempt at all.
Agreed. Though what is worse for me is that its pretty easy to get several strikes in but no way to get a throw in the same turn?
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