Sino-Atlantic martial arts

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by martinl

I think you also need a rarefied and possibly useless Chinese sword art for officers and aristos who never actually fight anyone hand to hand in earnest.

The more I think about it, the more I like this. A combat art sword style practiced only for exercise and highly stylized competititions (much like modern Wushu and Tai Chi) would be a great Chinese style to include.

On the western side, Sport Fencing would probably never develop, but combat fencing may be taught secretly or disguised as "native dance". Many of the European sword fighting arts would be practiced with sticks and canes, and would maintain a practical streetfighting philosophy.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by aesir23

The more I think about it, the more I like this. A combat art sword style practiced only for exercise and highly stylized competititions (much like modern Wushu and Tai Chi) would be a great Chinese style to include.

I concur with this. In light of the relative uselessness of gunpowder weapons in the setting compared to 'normal' TL5, though, and the exigencies of naval service, I strongly suspect that naval men and their officers would have to know an effective martial art.

Boarding is far from dead at early TL5 and cutting out parties would cross swords most of the time.

In our history, cavalry at early TL5 also learnt swordsmanship for a practical purpose.

Originally Posted by aesir23

On the western side, Sport Fencing would probably never develop, but combat fencing may be taught secretly or disguised as "native dance". Many of the European sword fighting arts would be practiced with sticks and canes, and would maintain a practical streetfighting philosophy.

Much will depend on the military situation. A situation where Europeans serve in Chinese-officered armies is very different from one where Chinese regiments keep the peace amidst rebellious subjects not allowed to bear arms.

From whswhs' description, I would suspect that subject kings in Europe still have their own armies and that Europeans therefore still have sport fencing as well as cavalry swordsmanship.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Much will depend on the military situation. A situation where Europeans serve in Chinese-officered armies is very different from one where Chinese regiments keep the peace amidst rebellious subjects not allowed to bear arms.

From whswhs' description, I would suspect that subject kings in Europe still have their own armies and that Europeans therefore still have sport fencing as well as cavalry swordsmanship.

It's kind of ambiguous in the source material. I'm leaning toward a British Raj analogy. Most of Europe is under direct Chinese rule, though it may have native regiments with Chinese officers. But then there are princely states whose rulers are allowed their own armies. Both Poland and Great Britain seem to have made such deals with the Empire. On the other hand, I think the Chinese have an official monopoly of seapower, though they probably allow local authorities to maintain coast guards, and the British, at least, probably quietly sponsor blue water vessels, just in case.

Bill Stoddard

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by whswhs

It's kind of ambiguous in the source material. I'm leaning toward a British Raj analogy. Most of Europe is under direct Chinese rule, though it may have native regiments with Chinese officers. But then there are princely states whose rulers are allowed their own armies. Both Poland and Great Britain seem to have made such deals with the Empire. On the other hand, I think the Chinese have an official monopoly of seapower, though they probably allow local authorities to maintain coast guards, and the British, at least, probably quietly sponsor blue water vessels, just in case.

Bill Stoddard

In that case, you've got Polish Hussars with their sabres and lances and either a tiny British army mostly for show (if the Brits are content) or a large and nationalistic British military that itches to show the Chinese what's for as soon as Europe rises (if not).

The Chinese would be capable of controlling the supply of gunpowder to Britain, I think. In our history, at least, they needed to import saltpetre. So, depending on how secure the Brits felt that their supply was, they might have a military that focuses nearly exclusively on muskets and cannon, as in our history, or they might still retain a lower TL force; bills, pikes and the occasional musket. A Britain that is contemplating revolt might have trained sailors with cutlasses just waiting to take over Chinese naval ships.

European 'sepoys' would probably have guns and a secure source of powder and their melee martial arts would be bayonets and the butts of their muskets.

I think that the UK would have the same backsword and singlestick tradition that it has in our world, but that any bits of Chinese flavour you want to add to individual masters would fit.

Ironically, Chinese domination might have acted as a focus for xenophobic tendencies, allowing other Europeans to be perceived as more 'our kind'. This might have moderated English prejudices against the rapier and later the smallsword. Given that England is not under direct Chinese rule, the greatest fencing masters might prefer to teach there rather than in subjugated Europe. Of course, cosmopolitan Englishmen might adopt Chinese customs and fencing methods, in an attempt to ape the fashions of the elite. There could be strong rivalries between an informal allegiance of old-fashioned Masters of Defence and rapier instructors on one hand and teachers of Chinese styles on the other.

Escrima, as noted earlier, would be a pretty good fit for the hand-to-hand style used by Chinese sailors and anyone connected to it. If it were my campaign, I should prefer to come up with my own style, though. Roots in Guangzhou, influences from everywhere they've sailed.

Close range fighting emphasised, I should think, and the weaponry short broad-bladed swords or knives. Skills: Judo, Karate, Knife, Shortsword. For techniques, look to stuff like Close-Combat, Counterattack, Evade and all the close combat stuff like Elbow and Knee strikes. Basically, take a look at Kuntao and Wing Chun, pick and choose stuff that looks like boarding sailors would use it, and then leaven it with stuff from Escrima, Savate and fencing.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by whswhs

And perhaps an "art of cloak and dagger" used by secretive Western assassins.

The Art of Cloak and Dagger [5]:

Primary Skills: Cloak; Holdout; Knife; Stealth;

Techniques: Armed Grapple (Cloak); Combination (Knife Thrust / Neck + Knife Swing / Neck); Disarming (Cloak); Feint (Cloak or Knife); Reverse Grip (Knife); Targeted Attack (Knife Swing / Neck); Targeted Attack (Knife Thrust / Vitals);

Cinematic Skills: Light Walk; Lizard Climb; Pressure Point Strike;

Perks: Drunken Fighting; Improvised Weapon (Cloak or Knife); Neck Control (Knife); Quick-Swap (Knife); Technique Mastery (Armed Grapple);

Optional Advantages: Enhanced Block (Cloak);

Optional Skills: Brawling; Disguise; Fast-Draw (Cloak or Knife); Main-Gauche; Shadowing; Thrown Weapon (Knife); Wrestling;

Notes: A style developed by secretive Western assassins, evolved out of Dagger Fighting by placing emphasis on stealth, speed, and surprise. Stylists focus on the use of typical innocuous cloaks and ubiquitous, impossible-to-ban small sharp things to kill very efficiently (usually by establishing neck control from surprise and then cutting the throat to keep the noise down), but does not assume the availability of even these simple tools; a master of the style can wreck your day with a tablecloth and a broken bottle, a bedsheet and a letter opener, or similar combinations that may be acquired after a checkpoint and patdown. Wrestling techniques from Dagger Fighting are replaced with Cloak grapples to maintain distance and avoid exposing the hands to parries with swords, but are often added back in later by advanced practitioners. Legendary masters in cinematic versions of the setting are reputed to be able to penetrate any chamber, feign (or work through) intoxication to get close to a victim, and drop a stout man with a single precise needle-prick.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

The Art of Cloak and Dagger [5]:

That's a nice bit of work. But I'm wondering if Shadowing might be a primary skill and Stealth an optional.

Bill Stoddard

[whswhs]

This has been a very helpful discussion, and I've seen several ideas I want to adopt. Here's a review of what's struck me so far:

SolemnGolem suggests that Chinese martial arts has a strong influence from nautical combat traditions, including balance, climbing, acrobatics, and sword fighting. Icelander adds the suggestion that some such arts could be based on escrima and on Guangzhou styles. Lord Carnifex add silat and kuntao. Icelander mentions Wing Chun as a possible source for close-in shipboard fighting.

Icelander discusses backsword and singlestick techniques in English fighting.

martinl suggests that Europeans go for stick fighting styles in a big way. Icelander expands on this with Western monastic traditions with suitable Latin names and mendicant practitioners. Gef mentions the sling as also being hard to outlaw.

aesir23 mentions Wudang sword style as suited for swashbuckling.

martinl and aesir23 both favor a highly stylized combat art sword style.

Icelander suggests that European native troops serving under Chinese officers might have a bayonet-based martial art.

Gold & Appel Inc writes up the Art of Cloak and Dagger as a combat style for European assassins.

I'm going to need to read more about several of these. I'll have to take out Sydney Anglo again, I guess!

Bill Stoddard

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

Basically, take a look at Kuntao and Wing Chun, pick and choose stuff that looks like boarding sailors would use it, and then leaven it with stuff from Escrima, Savate and fencing.

This is interesting. It's never occurred to me before, but Savate and Wing Chun are VERY different styles both (allegedly) designed for ship-board hand-to-hand combat.

Wing Chun is a close-range style with very few kicks (always to the legs), optimized for the claustrophic conditions on board a Chinese junk or the ubiquitous houseboats of the Chinese coastal cities.

Savate is almost entirely kicks so that it can be used effectively on a rocking boat while holding on to the rigging for balance.

With increased contact between China and France I wonder if a hybrid style would develop that teaches Wing Chun style punches and traps for in-fighting and Savate high kicks and leg sweeps for when you're a yard or more away.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by whswhs

That's a nice bit of work.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by whswhs

But I'm wondering if Shadowing might be a primary skill and Stealth an optional.

I mostly went for Stealth as the primary because Shadowing defaults from it and not vice-versa, but it's not a big deal either way IMHO. I'd probably be more inclined to do both Primary rather than just Shadowing, unless these are Fanatical assassins who don't plan to get away as a standard operating procedure...

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

I mostly went for Stealth as the primary because Shadowing defaults from it and not vice-versa, but it's not a big deal either way IMHO. I'd probably be more inclined to do both Primary rather than just Shadowing, unless these are Fanatical assassins who don't plan to get away as a standard operating procedure...

I don't think they would have the opportunity to build up to very high skill levels.

Bill Stoddard