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Old 11-19-2015, 09:47 PM   #1191
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by tbrock1031 View Post
I had an eye towards the more recent MAX title, which had him rather... well, take a look.

I'm trying not to give him Leifeldian or even proto-Leifeldian proportions....
ST 14 isn't that high - it's strong (about double normal) but plausible for a big muscular guy. A better guide would be how Frank performs Strength wise against opponents. Figure the typical thug is ST 11-12. If they seem even in raw muscle and Frank is beating them just by skill in a brawl, 12 is reasonable. If he can smack them around reliably, I'd go higher.
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Old 11-19-2015, 11:39 PM   #1192
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

There are discussion on this same board about 14 being the max value for human being without chemical enhancements. You can agree or not and, if you agree, 12 is already the strenght of a big muscular guy.
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Old 11-20-2015, 01:23 AM   #1193
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

Making 14 some kind of normal human maximum seems to generate too restricted a range. I work on the principle (which I think is somewhere in the books) that 8 to 12 is the "unremarkable human" range in any stat; ordinary folks-in-the-street have a range of abilities, but if you're within that range, few people will comment on you in terms of that attribute, you can't make much of living out of the attribute alone, and nobody considers you obviously disadvantaged.

So when I say that I'm DX 8, I mean that I'm not terribly good at tasks requiring balance or coordination, but I get by, and can avoid car accidents by paying attention and taking a second or two more over things than most people. I'm not a smooth mover, but I'm not a total klutz either. And ST 12 is the top end of unremarkable strength; the well-built guy who isn't obviously flabby, and who maybe goes to the gym a couple of times a week or otherwise keeps in minimal shape, but who can't be described as a muscleman or a gym bunny. Frank Castle, though, is an obsessive who doubtless exercises hard on a regular basis, and who can be routinely expected to out-wrestle dime-a-dozen thugs if the need arises. That has to take him beyond 12.
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Old 11-20-2015, 06:45 AM   #1194
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

So IQ 8 is normal? I strongly disagree with that. If the only way to be noticeably mildly retarded is to have IQ 6, barely above that of a chimpanzee, I think your parameters are skewed.

Of course, I think ST should have a much wider curve than the other stats though very strongly correlated with (muscle)mass.
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Old 11-20-2015, 06:57 AM   #1195
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by tbrock1031 View Post
I had an eye towards the more recent MAX title, which had him rather... well, take a look.

I'm trying not to give him Leifeldian or even proto-Leifeldian proportions....
Well, yeah, that guy is pretty weedy. I certainly never thought of Frank like THAT! :)

Okay, if that is your template, ST 12 is fine.

(As for ST 14 being human max, uhh, no way. ST 17 _maybe_, depending on how you measure. ST in the low 20s even, but ST 14 is easily doable. There are 130lb women competing right now with >ST14.)
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Old 11-20-2015, 10:38 AM   #1196
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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So IQ 8 is normal?
It's the dim end of "not abnormal". Admittedly, the IQ scale is badly compressed down that end of things, probably due to the need to differentiate between various animal species of clearly different intelligence, so one is left with IQ 7 for anybody and everybody who is clearly functional in human society, can hold a simple conversation, but oh dear got problems.
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Old 11-20-2015, 12:18 PM   #1197
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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As for ST 14 being human max, uhh, no way. ST 17 _maybe_, depending on how you measure. ST in the low 20s even, but ST 14 is easily doable. There are 130lb women competing right now with >ST14.
I should note that I tend to look at 15 as being the "typical maximum" for stats other than ST, and somewhere between 17 and 20 being the maximum for unaugmented ST. (Cap and Panther are both augmented, which allows them to have ST 23.)

That said, I once recommended additional Striking ST over the body ST for Batman over in a DCU thread. I should probably take my own advice and give Frank some Striking ST, perhaps up to ST 17.

I don't want him carrying around BFGs like some covers have him, which is why I kept his ST how it is while raising his HP; he can take a lot more punishment than his ST indicates, after all.
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Old 11-21-2015, 04:59 PM   #1198
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Well, yeah, that guy is pretty weedy. I certainly never thought of Frank like THAT! :)

Okay, if that is your template, ST 12 is fine.

(As for ST 14 being human max, uhh, no way. ST 17 _maybe_, depending on how you measure. ST in the low 20s even, but ST 14 is easily doable. There are 130lb women competing right now with >ST14.)
I wouldn't call that Frank weedy, he just doesn't have the usual pumped up physique. Funny thing is that listed weight for a lot of these superheroes rarely matches modern appearance. Of course it makes even less sense for the superheroines.

To make ST 14 human max would requires Lifting ST and Lifting skill to pick up a lot of slack. My own ballpark estimate for ST required for world records suggests about ST 22-23 is needed. Some of that is Lifting skill, Lifting ST and extra effort but it seems unlikely the strongest men are working from ST 14.

I'd disagree about the 130 lb women competing with ST 15+. The world record for women in the 63 kg (up to 139 lbs or so) for a snatch lift is about 258 lbs and for a clean & jerk about 320 lbs. My own estimates (Snatch is BL*5, C&J BL*6) suggest a little over ST 16. However that's after high Lifting skill, extra effort and possibly Lifting ST. I'd guess base ST more like 12 or 13. But I'm probably getting overly pedantic.

Anyway, I'd still say the MAX version of Punisher remains a big, beefy guy who hits hard and I'd go with ST 14 or 15.
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Old 11-22-2015, 07:49 PM   #1199
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

Updated the Punisher's stats. Thanks for all the suggestions!
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Old 11-23-2015, 11:53 AM   #1200
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

My apologies, this is gonna be another long post.

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Originally Posted by tbrock1031 View Post
Updated the Punisher's stats. Thanks for all the suggestions!
Glad he got the Striking Strength but... well since you showed us a cover, here's another:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...X_1_Dillon.jpg

You are designing the setting of course, so if you want a less beefy Frank, you've got it! So as you can tell, I've got a few areas where how I see the Punisher is different enough for GURPS to notice, but as usual this is your baby so you're free to disregard. ;)

I'm part of the "Punisher is an alternate take on Batman" crowd. I'm not in the dead center where people think "The Punisher should be statted as Batman, but with guns!", but I'm at least in the fringe; Frank is an ex-soldier and was a good soldier by most accounts, and when his family is slaughtered in front of him he becomes an even better soldier, pushing himself to his limits. So I see his ST as more like 13 or 14, but not higher given what you have expressly stated you wish to avoid, even if you're also giving him Striking Strength. The Punisher is not only visible strong unless he disguises it with bulky clothing (and by "disguise" I mean makes it plausible he isn't ripped, not that anyone will assume he's a string bean underneath).

His DX seems just a bit low, and perhaps I am not giving enough credit to things like his Enhanced Dodge but I think he warrants a 14 here. Though he's got plenty of iconic moments where he's not worried about being quick or agile, just bursting into a room to hose down those inside with bullets while counting on his assault plus body armor to protect him (or of course, just not worrying about protection), he goes ninja often enough. In fact the main reason not to give him DX 14 is because you think it gives him too high of defaults: you already bought his Basic Speed up to 7 and many of his skills just wouldn't need as heavy of a point investment or aren't getting ridiculous from being a point higher. Defaulting Easy DX skills to 10+Talent seems very like the Punisher; he isn't universally skilled but he's significantly more competent about such things than the average person.

His IQ may actually be a point too high; I'm not overly concerned about this but since I'm commenting on ST and DX, figured I might as well mention it. Another level in Born Soldier doesn't stretch belief (the Frank Castle/The Punisher very much is a Born Soldier) or perhaps he should have a level in another appropriate talent for where IQ 11 doesn't seem like quite enough. My argument for raising DX works against me here; though Frank doesn't seem quite like an IQ 12 guy (definitely at least IQ 11 though), I don't want his calculated traits or Skill levels dropping, so this would just lower his IQ based defaults a notch and make him less point efficient. Oh and HT seems just right due to the other traits taken alongside it.

Now... does he need to be a Desert Storm veteran?

I believe the Punisher works best as a war veteran, but even with the 2010 date* you could have him being from a more recent conflict. In fact, I think elements from Viet Nam translate more readily to Afghanistan and Iraq (and I to recommend having Frank serve in both conflicts), probably with Frank having already been in the military prior to 9/11, but the period after giving him the bulk of his higher level experience. 2007 or 2008 he comes home and... depending on the specifics, he either rushes into becoming a cop or a least he doesn't wait too long for it. Likewise it doesn't take too long for him to earn the ire of the mob and you already made it clear he didn't wait too long after his family's death to become the Punisher. It lacks "buffer time" but I think it works for Frank to be less far removed from military life.

*Separate question; have you considered pushing that forward at all as this thread is still going and at least some characters might work better if this takes place in 2012, 2015 or even guessing for a 2020 date. You weren't going to include Arno Stark, were ya? ;)
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