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Old 03-05-2021, 08:33 AM   #1
JulianLW
 
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Default [Supers] Marvel Movies Power Level?

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Originally Posted by Phantasm View Post
The Basic Set and previous publications (most notably 3e's Compendium I) set "human maximum" at 20 in all four main stats. That cap has been there since 1e in '86, as far as I know. What Supers is saying is that in comics some characters who are otherwise normal humans can be said to have scores that exceed 20, which is otherwise a game no-no, and that the GM is well within his rights to say that "super-normals", or characters who are human with skills and stats exceptional enough to help them take down low-powered super-adversaries, can buy up their stats beyond 20.

Consider the movie versions of Black Widow and Hawkeye. She quite possibly has a DX score up around 20-25, while he not only has a Bow skill up around 30 but a DX score of 20+ and a Per (or at least Vision) score of 25 (though quite possibly with Bad Sight (Farsighted)), all raised through training rather than super-soldier experimentation.

I've also seen one Batman build that was 20s across the board in stats, and one that had 25s in DX and HT with 20s in ST and IQ. Why that high? "He's Batman."
I believe I've seen Phantasm comment in a few places that his GURPS versions of the Marvel heroes are not as high-powered as the recent MCU movie versions. But because the movie versions of these characters are so readily accessible, I'm curious what y'all think the point values and/or stats are for some of these characters? I'd be happy to hear your ballpark guesses on how you'd stat the Chris Evans Captain America or the Tom Holland Spider-Man, especially what you think their point value ranges are.

What kind of DX score does it take to fight - and beat - all those drones over the London Bridge (Tower Bridge?) in Spider-Man: Far From Home, for example?

Approximately what is the power level/point value being depicted in these movies?

Thanks in advance, everybody!

Last edited by JulianLW; 03-05-2021 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 03-05-2021, 10:41 AM   #2
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Default Re: [Supers] Marvel Movies Power Level?

Varies widely. Captain Marvel is probably 2000+ points. At the other end, Natasha and Hawkeye are probably around 500 points.
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Old 03-05-2021, 10:41 AM   #3
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Default Re: [Supers] Marvel Movies Power Level?

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
I believe I've seen Phantasm comment in a few places that his GURPS versions of the Marvel heroes are not as high-powered as the recent MCU movie versions. But because the movie versions of these characters are so readily accessible, I'm curious what y'all think the point values and/or stats are for some of these characters? I'd be happy to hear your ballpark guesses on how you'd stat the Chris Evans Captain America or the Tom Holland Spider-Man, especially what you think their point value ranges are.

What kind of DX score does it take to fight - and beat - all those drones over the London Bridge (Tower Bridge?) in Spider-Man: Far From Home, for example?

Approximately what is the power level/point value being depicted in these movies?

Thanks in advance, everybody!
First of all, forget Batman with DX 25 as a reference (from DC). I can see arguments for a Spiderman with DX above 20, after all he is described as having superhuman agility. Others, like Batman or even Captain America would have no more than 20. Remembering that with such high attributes, any measly point in physical skills would make them absurd. By How to Be the GURPS GM, SL 18 is already one of the best in the world and 21-22 among the best ever. So limiting DX to 20 to human characters is reasonable.

ST on the other hand, can be variable. In comics, the concept of Captain America, for example, is that he is the highest point possible for a human. The template inspired by him in GURPS Supers presents as having 20 in ST (as well as DX and HT). But his feats in the movies go far beyond that value.

In Winter Soldier he holds a helicopter one arm. In The Age of Ultron he throws a bike with strenght enough to smash a reinforced car. He is able to bend iron bars. These and other achievements suggest an ST much higher than 20. Or access to it in some way, even if temporary.
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Old 03-05-2021, 10:59 AM   #4
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Default Re: [Supers] Marvel Movies Power Level?

It depends on which rules and options you use to represent these characters. I did movie Justice League characters on a 500-1000 point budget, that played pretty well and covered what most feats done in the movies.

KYOS, for example, drastically reduces ST costs. Reducing either the availability or stats of gear (especially military gear) also goes a long way to reducing how much protection you need to give the heroes.

A lot of the cost in many adaptations comes usually comes from trying to cover everything. Most heroes don't need ultra high attributes in everything* nor do they need to do every feat they've never done in a comic or movie.

Spidey, especially a young spidey, does just fine with a DX 14ish. His "amazing" agility is usually a combination of advantages such as Perfect Balance, cosmic Dodge, Danger Sense, and either high Dodge or high Speed. Spidey often has deficiencies doing things that require physical skills such as martial arts, driving, dancing, and more because he's learning or defaulting them well below professional level.

Last edited by naloth; 03-05-2021 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 03-05-2021, 11:04 AM   #5
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Default Re: [Supers] Marvel Movies Power Level?

Instead of ultra-high base-stats the actual gameplay usually works out better if you buy them a bunch of advantages related to whatever their 'thing' is. For Batman you might want to build some of his gadgets as advantages f.ex. And give him lots of "Gizmo" so the player can pull out kryptonite, bat-fish-repellent or whatever he needs that fits his 'theme'.

And consider using either "Luck" or some sort of Fate-point system if you don't want Batman to randomly get shot from the back and die.

Generally 'rule of cool' or 'rule of drama' is the most important thing in that type of setting. If you want to nail the Marvel-feel anyway. Let's-build-someone-with-Batman's-stated-abilities is of course also a legit approach if you don't care for the Marvel-movie feeling.
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Old 03-05-2021, 11:21 AM   #6
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Default Re: [Supers] Marvel Movies Power Level?

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
KYOS, for example, drastically reduces ST costs.
KYOS works well for low numbers. For high ST values, the rule starts to fall apart. The numbers for Lifting ST and Striking ST do not scale in the same way. So, you have a Super that is capable of carrying the entire planet Earth on its back, but still does not have enough damage to crush a tank.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Most heroes don't need ultra high attributes in everything* nor do they need to do every feat they've never done in a comic or movie.
I agree. Many feats in comics and movies could be translated to Advantagens, Talents, etc. Sometimes you don't need a DX 20 or IQ 20 to be amazing.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Spidey, especially a young spidey, does just fine with a DX 14ish. His "amazing" agility is usually a combination of advantages such as Perfect Balance, cosmic Dodge, Danger Sense, and either high Dodge or high Speed. Spidey often has deficiencies doing things that require physical skills such as martial arts, driving, dancing, and more because he's learning or defaulting them well below professional level.
+-. In the comics, he is usually presented as someone who can do a lot of these physical things very well, event without training. He just doesn't always have the discipline to actually learn them. In one story, the Captain told Peter that his agility gives him the potential to be one of the greatest fighters in the world. Then Steve tried to teach Peter martial arts. For a while, it was going well. But soon Peter lost discipline and returned to trusting only his usual instincts or fighting style.

I can see a Spiderman with DX lower than 20, but 14 is a low value, even for a young version. I would give him at least 16, which by the way is the value described as "amazing" in How to Be a GURPS GM. The rest I agree: give him a high Dodge/Speed, Perfect Balance and Danger Sense, etc.
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Old 03-05-2021, 11:23 AM   #7
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Default Re: [Supers] Marvel Movies Power Level?

Hey, y'all! Thanks for these responses. I'm NOT really interested in rehashing the argument about stat normalization, since that has already been thoroughly, exhaustively discussed here. None of the Marvel movie heroes live in a world of normal stats.

I'm more interested in how you would assess the CP values of the characters shown in the movies.
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Old 03-05-2021, 11:31 AM   #8
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Default Re: [Supers] Marvel Movies Power Level?

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
I'm more interested in how you would assess the CP values of the characters shown in the movies.
I don't know if there is a quick answer to that. It all depends on where the points are spent, how much detail you want. By the way, total point cost not really represent level of power. You can have a character of 10,000 points, but that spent 9999 points in Cooking. It all depends on how the character is made, where the points are spent. I know that the example is exaggerated, but I have already played and GM several games where the total CP does not necessarily translate into real power, where the 250 CP templates from Dungeon Fantasy, for example, were much more powerful than characters I played or GM, of more than a thousand points.
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Old 03-05-2021, 11:44 AM   #9
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Default Re: [Supers] Marvel Movies Power Level?

Some movie feats can actually be quantified and translated to GURPS stats. As an example, I did a very rough calculation for Hulk punching out the Chitauri Leviathan in the first Avengers and determined that particular feat would require at least Super ST+20/5000 [800]. Lifting feats are even easier to quantify, although there will still be some arguments over the particulars.
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Old 03-05-2021, 11:48 AM   #10
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Default Re: [Supers] Marvel Movies Power Level?

Not to mention that moment in Secret Wars where the Hulk holds up a mountain range. Although he did have bracing to help him.
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