[DF] Dungeon Fantasy Advancement question

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

The Next Level guidelines are basically there to simulate old school "boiling anthills" style play, AFAICT, if you don't want that, don't use them.

I'd say "video game" style instead of old school - very old school games largely rewarded treasure hauls with some extra for monsters. A troll usually wasn't worth more than a fraction of the value of his loot! IIRC the little brown books of white-box D&D gave an example of 700 xp for a troll, and 7000 xp for his 7000 gp in loot. :)

One thing on a megadungeon, though, is that I'd reward a successful excursion, and ruthlessly enforce the need to take home a profit for each trip and make it safely back to town/semi-permanent camp. That's where I get my 5 point base from - straight out of DF3. That drives a lot of my play - players know their PCs have had enough, they're pushing their luck and resources aren't what they need to be . . . but they haven't pulled a profit yet so they go just...one...more...room...and that's when real adventure seems to hit. Just add a penalty for minimal exploration, and drop it all the way to 0 for "walk in, see a room, leave." That'll keep players profit-oriented and exploration oriented ("Maybe there is a dragon trove here") and really drive them after real risk for real loot. IME, anyway.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

I'd say "video game" style instead of old school - very old school games largely rewarded treasure hauls with some extra for monsters. A troll usually wasn't worth more than a fraction of the value of his loot! IIRC the little brown books of white-box D&D gave an example of 700 xp for a troll, and 7000 xp for his 7000 gp in loot. :)

One thing on a megadungeon, though, is that I'd reward a successful excursion, and ruthlessly enforce the need to take home a profit for each trip and make it safely back to town/semi-permanent camp. That's where I get my 5 point base from - straight out of DF3. That drives a lot of my play - players know their PCs have had enough, they're pushing their luck and resources aren't what they need to be . . . but they haven't pulled a profit yet so they go just...one...more...room...and that's when real adventure seems to hit. Just add a penalty for minimal exploration, and drop it all the way to 0 for "walk in, see a room, leave." That'll keep players profit-oriented and exploration oriented ("Maybe there is a dragon trove here") and really drive them after real risk for real loot. IME, anyway.

Peter, you really need to bottle that and sell it...

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Peter, you really need to bottle that and sell it...

Thanks. I'm hoping the OP tries it out just as I'm trying it out in my own DF game. If it works in multiple megadungeons, it's not just me and my game approach causing my players to be profit motivated delvers instead of kill-happy murderers.

But it's working for me so far. I hope it keeps working that way in the Megadungeon . . . Which reminds me, I do need to offer some kind of "go down and encounter something on the next level and survive" bonus, to encourage people to find stairs/pits/chutes/slides/elevators/gates/etc. and well, try to just take "one quick jaunt" beyond.

[Mister Negative]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

But it's working for me so far. I hope it keeps working that way in the Megadungeon . . . Which reminds me, I do need to offer some kind of "go down and encounter something on the next level and survive" bonus, to encourage people to find stairs/pits/chutes/slides/elevators/gates/etc. and well, try to just take "one quick jaunt" beyond.

You do have a lot of really good, practical ideas. A couple of suggestions for the Megadungeon:

First, you could just swipe the 'quest area' xp bonus from DF3 and give it out each time a new level is breached.

Second, you could give out 'bragging rights'. If there's something distinctive about unexplored levels of the dungeon, the FIRST group of adventurers down there might get some kind of actual advantage (like the Hero advantage in DF11). I wouldn't give them a bonus to selling items and reaction rolls, but it would certainly count for Carousing rolls for rumors, Research rolls for more information, and the rolls for finding a sponsor. ("These are the guys who discovered the Temple of the Frog! Tell them about the ziggurat!"). It could also count for intimidation rolls against rival parties of adventurers.

Finally, if the Megadungeon isn't exclusive to one party of adventurers, the guys who find an entrance to the next level could perhaps sell a sweet map to other, less experienced delvers back in town. ("We know how to get into the Ziggurat of Peril. Just costs ya some gold. No guarantees you'll get back, though.")

[umbros]

Wow! Awesome ideas everyone. This is the best thread I've ever started.

A few ideas I had:
-an award based on the value of coins, gems and jewelry extracted...say 1 CP per $500 or $1000. (hmm this might be a bit much.)

or

- If the PCs steal a guarded treasure they get CPs as if they fought and defeated the guardian.

or

-An award based on net profit in relation to starting wealth... like if net profit is $1000 (average wealth) 0 CP, $2000 (Comfortable) 2 CP, $5000 (Wealthy) 3 CP, and so on.

Thanks everyone.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Mister Negative

First, you could just swipe the 'quest area' xp bonus from DF3 and give it out each time a new level is breached.

Second, you could give out 'bragging rights'.

I like those ideas. My big concern, really, is that if they find something is new I need to confirm it's new (by giving XP) or confirm it isn't (buy withholding XP). So maybe I do need to just mark certain areas as "features" instead of going by level. A properly confusing dungeon area might have you think you're going down a level when you aren't, or up when you aren't, or nowhere when you are.

Originally Posted by umbros

Wow! Awesome ideas everyone. This is the best thread I've ever started.

A few ideas I had:
-an award based on the value of coins, gems and jewelry extracted...say 1 CP per $500 or $1000. (hmm this might be a bit much.)

or

- If the PCs steal a guarded treasure they get CPs as if they fought and defeated the guardian.

or

-An award based on net profit in relation to starting wealth... like if net profit is $1000 (average wealth) 0 CP, $2000 (Comfortable) 2 CP, $5000 (Wealthy) 3 CP, and so on.

Thanks everyone.

The second isn't bad if you're giving out XP for kills in the first place. You've just expanded "kill" to "kill and/or loot". The first and third I think are a bit of an issue. Here's why:

- those two equate money with XP, which while it's suitably old school, it means enough profit to buy a new suit of armor or a better sword is enough to buy up your skills too.

- Even $1000/1 xp means a pound of gold is 20 XP. You can't give out fabulous wealth without long-term consequences. The money may get frittered away but the points will stay forever. So you will need to consider all money in terms of XP, which means placing enough they can find to get your expected rate of advance but not so much they power up too quickly for your megadungeon.

- Punishing folks for not getting enough to turn a profit motivates looting without getting too silly, but I think this would mean every penny counts because it helps you get more powerful. Expect people to haul off dungeon chairs and sell them as "fine orcish furniture!" and all that.

- the third also adds the idea that certain advantages increase your profits but reduce the value of those profits. So you pay points to get more money but not as much XP.

- And the third means you have to separately track profit on a PC by PC basis. It gets weird if Wealthy Wizard sells all the look for Poor Barbarian and gives him a fair share - who gets what XP?

Just some thoughts. I'm a big fan of what you do in #2, though - reward the results, not the method. Kill the guys? Tricked him? Suborned him? All the same.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

I like those ideas. My big concern, really, is that if they find something is new I need to confirm it's new (by giving XP) or confirm it isn't (buy withholding XP). So maybe I do need to just mark certain areas as "features" instead of going by level. A properly confusing dungeon area might have you think you're going down a level when you aren't, or up when you aren't, or nowhere when you are.

While CRPGs (Especially MMOs) are pretty transparent about where you are, they definitely do the "ding - you have discovered the Jungle Zone!" thing, they also do "ding - you have discovered the Temple of the Revolving Frog!", and you could stick to just the latter, not the former.

Skyrim is pretty generous about giving you "discovered location XYZ" notices, but Warcraft often demands you go right into the Temple/Fortress/whatever before you get credit. Especially if exploring it is a formal quest objective.

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

Just some thoughts. I'm a big fan of what you do in #2, though - reward the results, not the method. Kill the guys? Tricked him? Suborned him? All the same.

I do that. I don't actually reward "killing" per ce at all. Just deal with the situation in some way in a reasonably long-term manner, and you get your CP. "Brave Sir Robin Bravely Ran Away" usually isn't worth CP because the monsters come back to get you - usually while you're trying to Bravely Run Away from other monsters, foiling your escape. They haven't been dealt with, just delayed. If you manage to put together a permanent-ish escape somehow (I have no idea how), then yeah sure, you'll get points for it.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

I like those ideas. My big concern, really, is that if they find something is new I need to confirm it's new (by giving XP) or confirm it isn't (buy withholding XP). So maybe I do need to just mark certain areas as "features" instead of going by level. A properly confusing dungeon area might have you think you're going down a level when you aren't, or up when you aren't, or nowhere when you are.

Generally speaking, in my experience anyway, each significant area of a megadungeon has a specific room, encounter, or item that makes it a significant area in the first place. Maybe just give the point out at the end of session in which the characters discover the key room, encounter the boss, or find the item?