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Old 05-16-2013, 08:48 AM   #1
ammulder
 
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Default Repair Questions

So after a couple recent threads, I've been fiddling with repair scenarios.

This led me to a question I posted elsewhere and another in the same vein -- can you sell a shot-up tire or shot-up body armor for the usual salvage value? For instance, if an HD tire or IBA took 3 points of damage, normally the salvage value would be 50% of the original cost and you could sell it for 25% of the original cost. There's some sense in that -- the material is still worth something, even if for recycling, and in any case some tire or body armor is still better than none!

Anyway, here's another one. How do you calculate the cost to repair armor when there's a ramplate? The description of a ramplate says it's destroyed when the front armor is destroyed, which seems to suggest it's totally separate -- it is no more expensive to repair front armor that has a ramplate than to repair front armor without a ramplate -- except that if ALL the front armor is destroyed, you must pay to replace the ramplate too. And the same for brushcutters, bumper spikes, etc.

And on electronics: many electronic items are noted as destroyed when the power plant is destroyed (Targeting Computers, Radar Jammer, Autopilot, Computer Gunner, etc.). Many do not have any similar notes (Bollix, ATAD, Computer Navigator, etc.). Do you think that's intentional or an oversight? That is, should all electronic-y equipment need to be replaced when the power plant is destroyed unless otherwise noted (modulo surge protector), or only the items where it's specifically noted? One wrinkle is a handful of items that note that they stop working (as opposed to are destroyed) when the power plant is destroyed -- IRSS, Radar Detector, and Radar.

Dischargers: if used, I assume you can simply mount a new one. If destroyed by incoming fire, does the wreckage need to first be salvaged/removed like other destroyed components before they can be replaced?
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:29 AM   #2
Nikas_Zekeval
 
Join Date: May 2013
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Default Re: Repair Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by ammulder View Post
So after a couple recent threads, I've been fiddling with repair scenarios.

This led me to a question I posted elsewhere and another in the same vein -- can you sell a shot-up tire or shot-up body armor for the usual salvage value? For instance, if an HD tire or IBA took 3 points of damage, normally the salvage value would be 50% of the original cost and you could sell it for 25% of the original cost. There's some sense in that -- the material is still worth something, even if for recycling, and in any case some tire or body armor is still better than none!
Unfortunantely scrap value is never very much. Given we still have mountians of used tires I suspect in 2060 you'd make more turning them into sneakers soles.

Quote:
Anyway, here's another one. How do you calculate the cost to repair armor when there's a ramplate? The description of a ramplate says it's destroyed when the front armor is destroyed, which seems to suggest it's totally separate -- it is no more expensive to repair front armor that has a ramplate than to repair front armor without a ramplate -- except that if ALL the front armor is destroyed, you must pay to replace the ramplate too. And the same for brushcutters, bumper spikes, etc.
I see body blades, spikes, and ramplates as special treatments and shapings to the armor. You effectively pay to have it scuplted and hardened. So when all the armor is gone, so is all that work.


Quote:
Dischargers: if used, I assume you can simply mount a new one. If destroyed by incoming fire, does the wreckage need to first be salvaged/removed like other destroyed components before they can be replaced?
I see dischargers as being bolted or glued to the body, and possibly a scrambled wireless detonator set up in the cockpit. Not sure if you scrape off the old one, or have a holder attached and slot a new charge in.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:28 AM   #3
juris
 
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Default Re: Repair Questions

Just an illustration of how repairing a vehicle needs to be simplified - it shouldn't require a spread sheet.

My take on electronics: If it doesn't have separate DP (like a solar panel as opposed to a fire extinguisher or a targeting computer) then it is destroyed along with the power plant (unless you have a surge protector as you mentioned). Easy to apply and understand.

Anything that can't be repaired has no salvage value. Maybe not realistic b/c you could still use damaged tires to build roads etc but... this is Car Wars not Sim Apocalypse. Besides, a 6 DP solid tire still weighs 75 lbs so who would want that? I'd rather have normal BA than a 3DP suit of IBA (IBA restricts movement, GE, etc). If you really want you can elect not to throw that stuff away and keep using it, but no one is going to buy it.

Ramplate - The most expeditious thing to do is to say that a ramplate that is not destroyed is still there - you just have to repair the front armor normally. If all the front armor is destroyed so is the ramplate and you have to replace it. Same with brushcutters etc.

Dischargers - They don't need to be installed I always assumed they were just glued on (or the sci-fi equivalent of glue heh).

They really need to address the issue of repair cost in 6e. Who cares about realism. The cost to repair (and sell) should be something like half the original cost, period. No percentages.

Or you can try to figure out this gem from the 2.5e Compendium, p. 73:

A vehicle or component may be sold for salvage. Salvage value is
(original cost - repair cost). Damaged parts may be bought for this
value, or sold for half this value.

???
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:44 AM   #4
ammulder
 
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Default Re: Repair Questions

I guess my thought on dischargers was that you have a wire going from a button in the cockpit, through the vehicle's armor, to the discharger. If half of it is blown away by incoming weapons fire, there's still a cleanup job required to remove whatever's left (including whatever remains or has spilled across the rest of your armor from the payload), and ensure the wiring is still functional after the armor is repaired. Then you can glue the new one into place. So I can see a justification for needing to salvage/remove the wreckage of the old one (an Easy task in any case) before gluing on the new one. :) But I don't feel strongly.

And the reality is, you're going to want a computer-assist for the salvage/repair calculation. Tires, armor, guards & hubs, spoiler & airdam, ammo, weapon/component damage, etc. Even if each of those was a simple calculation, you have the cost, the mechanic task type, the roll, the time needed, etc. Even if you were to further simplify, there's plenty of math and rolls just to add it all up.

Of course, I have my own idea as to how the computer-assist might work, and it doesn't involve a spreadsheet. :)

It would be nice for 6e to have an equipment list that included a column for damage with entries like:
  • Disabled when plant is destroyed
  • Destroyed when plant is destroyed
  • Destroyed when armor on the appropriate facing is destroyed
  • N DP
  • Only destroyed if vehicle burns to the ground/explodes
  • etc.

I like your general rule for electronics, but a coding like that would make it explicit.

It would also be nice to clarify gas engines. Seems unlikely you'd get a surge from blowing out a gas engine, and many of the electronics are routed to a laser battery anyway. Maybe only when all LBs are destroyed for gas or electric engines with LBs?
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:54 AM   #5
Nikas_Zekeval
 
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Default Re: Repair Questions

On misc electronics, perhaps some are folded into the engine control modules? The electronic 'black box(s)' that are the brain of the engine? That is why they are just a price, not an weight or space. The targeting computers are software upgrades of the basic targeting system for example. And that gets destroyed with the engine.

As for complexity of the repair and salvage rules, well they only really apply for players that want to run campaign games. Those specifically accept some extra complexity since you have to juggle logistics in some manner. They won't impact purely tactical shoot em up scenarios where you don't care about how much of the car survives as long as you have enough to be judged the winner.
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Old 05-16-2013, 11:08 AM   #6
ammulder
 
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Default Re: Repair Questions

Though as your other thread pointed out, the repair rules are relevant to both arena and road campaign games.

And the flip side of repair, salvage, can also be relevant to one-shot road games (if not one-shot arena games). I'm thinking of many of the ADQ scenarios where one of the encounters is a wreck on the side of the road, yet you're on a schedule. So if you only want to spend N hours salvaging, what's the most bang for your buck?
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Old 05-16-2013, 08:21 PM   #7
Pentalarc
 
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Default Re: Repair Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by ammulder View Post
So after a couple recent threads, I've been fiddling with repair scenarios.

This led me to a question I posted elsewhere and another in the same vein -- can you sell a shot-up tire or shot-up body armor for the usual salvage value? For instance, if an HD tire or IBA took 3 points of damage, normally the salvage value would be 50% of the original cost and you could sell it for 25% of the original cost. There's some sense in that -- the material is still worth something, even if for recycling, and in any case some tire or body armor is still better than none!

Anyway, here's another one. How do you calculate the cost to repair armor when there's a ramplate? The description of a ramplate says it's destroyed when the front armor is destroyed, which seems to suggest it's totally separate -- it is no more expensive to repair front armor that has a ramplate than to repair front armor without a ramplate -- except that if ALL the front armor is destroyed, you must pay to replace the ramplate too. And the same for brushcutters, bumper spikes, etc.

And on electronics: many electronic items are noted as destroyed when the power plant is destroyed (Targeting Computers, Radar Jammer, Autopilot, Computer Gunner, etc.). Many do not have any similar notes (Bollix, ATAD, Computer Navigator, etc.). Do you think that's intentional or an oversight? That is, should all electronic-y equipment need to be replaced when the power plant is destroyed unless otherwise noted (modulo surge protector), or only the items where it's specifically noted? One wrinkle is a handful of items that note that they stop working (as opposed to are destroyed) when the power plant is destroyed -- IRSS, Radar Detector, and Radar.

Dischargers: if used, I assume you can simply mount a new one. If destroyed by incoming fire, does the wreckage need to first be salvaged/removed like other destroyed components before they can be replaced?

Here's how I interpret the rules, and/or, what I do in my games/background, which I realize may not always be exactly identical.:

1) Shot up tires or body armor. For tires, the salvage sale value would be cost(% of remaining DP)/2. However, I would make there a chance that any certain salvage dealer, if they do not already know the PC's or if they do not have a standing deal with them may not accept such salvage at all. (Say, 50% chance) I would say that there would be a 25% chance of trading to an advanced scum gang. No chance to a cycle or bandit gang.

A cycle or bandit gang, to me would be more likely to not sell badly damaged tires for such a small amount, but more likely to toss them in the back of the workshop and keep them "just in case". Advanced scum gangs are more likely to sell them.

Shot up body armor. Same formula as for the tires, but with some additional bits. Because IBA has some extra qualities, damaged IBA can be salvaged as follows:

Easy task for mechanic or weaponsmith: For every two points of damage the IBA has taken, -1 to the roll, to convert into a working gas mask. This gas mask cannot be sold, except as 1lb of scrap. If the gas mask portion of the IBA has the LIG or tinted upgrades, this is preserved if the gas mask property is preserved.

Standard body armor, flak vests, impact armor, blended armor and armored battlevests do not have this ability.

Repair costs for ramplates:

If there is any remaining armor, the ramplate (or bumper spikes etc) is still there. It is repaired when and as the armor is repaired. My interpretation: the structure, support frame, etc is still there. If there is no armor, such structure is gone, and the ramplate etc must be purchased again for repairs.

The ramplate structures have no intrinsic salvage value.

To me, I assume that if the description says it is destroyed with the powerplant, it is, and if not, it isn't. (barring surge protectors, of course) Logically, perhaps, some devices are weaker against surge, and/or other devices have integrated anti-surge components.

My house rules for salvage: A device damaged by surge from a destroyed powerplant may be able to be salvaged for parts which may be of interest to a standard salvage company (30% chance) or a specialty salvage company (60% chance) with a hard task for a mechanic or a medium task for electronics repair, components up to 1d6-1 x 10% of the value of the new item may be recovered.

I do something similar for gas engines. A damaged gas engine may be used for parts. An easy mechanic roll will recover parts of a value of 2d6-2 x (% of remaining DP in the engine) x total cost of engine w/ options/2.

In any salvage operation, any component with DP, with the exception of tires, armor, component armor, wheel hubs or non-retractable wheelguards, or any item without DP which is "destroyed when the powerplant is destroyed) can instead be salvaged for "part units." It will produce remaining DP + 1 parts units. These can be sold to mechanics and other applicable repair people at a value of $10 per parts unit, or bought at $20 per parts unit, but are usually traded. For every 5 parts units that a repairman has when working with tools, but not able to get replacement parts, they may make a mechanic -1 roll for an medium job to temporarily rig or a hard job to repair or replace a weapon, engine or other item which can be salvaged in parts units, with a +1 to the roll per 5 parts units. Each failed attempt will expend 1 parts unit. Each parts unit weighs 1lb and takes up 1/5 of a space.

Any repair station that has been around for a while or any salvage yard, in addition to whatever specific replacement parts they have according ot the GM/ref, will have at least 100 parts units that the PC's can salvage. . . if they have enough cargo spaced to take it.

Dischargers: I always interpreted dischargers and not exactly leaving much behind when destroyed. They cannot be fixed if damaged in anyway, and disconnecting a triggered one or removing the remains of a destroyed one can be done by anyone. Installing a new one on a mounting that previously had a discharger (or any type) is a trivial task. . .just put it on, plug it to the trigger wire and go. Mounting a discharger where there was not previously one is an easy job.

General scrap (the stuff left over when everything with an individual value or property is removed) can be sold for salvage recycling at $5 per pound.
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Old 05-17-2013, 04:29 AM   #8
ammulder
 
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Default Re: Repair Questions

I was with you until here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pentalarc View Post
General scrap (the stuff left over when everything with an individual value or property is removed) can be sold for salvage recycling at $5 per pound.
So, a pickup body ($900 new) can be sold as scrap for $10,500? That would be neat! :)
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:17 AM   #9
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Default Re: Repair Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by ammulder View Post
I was with you until here:



So, a pickup body ($900 new) can be sold as scrap for $10,500? That would be neat! :)
...aaaaaand my math is wrong.

Sorry, I was copying it from a old set of campaign layouts I was using, and clearly something went wrong. I will find out where the error is and correct.
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Old 05-17-2013, 03:40 PM   #10
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Default Re: Repair Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pentalarc View Post
...aaaaaand my math is wrong.

Sorry, I was copying it from a old set of campaign layouts I was using, and clearly something went wrong. I will find out where the error is and correct.
... aaaaaaaaaaand I figured it out.

I do a lot of cut and pasting when designing my backgrounds/adventures and so forth, and the ones that are my copies (rather than what would go to the players) are abbreviated and a mess, basically. Plus, when I am in a hurry (which is my natural state) I tend to not pay attention to what I am translating from my own way of doing things. It should be 5% in $ per pound, not $5 per pound.

In other words, a completely stripped pickup shell would be worth in scrap:

$ = 5% weight, or $105
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