Area Attacks--Am I Missing Something?

[Sdrolion]

I'm wondering if I'm missing something here, because right now it seems like Area Effect, for +50%, can give you an amazingly powerful ability for not much cost (effectively nearly the same value as the +300% Cosmic modifier that disallows active defense).

Basically, if I'm understanding right, Area Effect, at +50%, gives you a 2-yard radius attack, covering the target hex and 1 hex in any direction around it. You can Dodge & Drop to defend against an Area Effect attack, but it only has any effect if you can get out of the Area with it or can get behind cover. Since unless you have Move 11+, you'll only go 1 yard with a D&D, that means that if you're at the center of the AE attack, the attack is undodgeable. As far as I can tell, it is also unparryable, and unblockable (though maybe shields can grant cover)?

So, yeah, a 2-yard radius isn't much as far as attacking multiple targets, but it is giving you an attack that cannot be defended against for a relatively low cost.

This just seems odd to me...wouldn't it have been a little better, maybe, to just make "Area Effect" mean that your attack struck at everything in the area, but the things in the area got a normal Dodge defense like with any other ranged attack? Then if you wanted to make a "filling" AE attack that just plain hit, there could be another modifier that would let you do that for a higher cost (if your GM allowed it).

Explosions make a little more sense--though honestly I don't like the top level (Damage divided by yards) as it can result in a similar effect for the person at the center (and yes, I know being at the center of an explosion should very realistically be very bad, but in game terms, saying "it doesn't matter what you do, you can't defend" doesn't seem very good to me).

Am I just horribly misinterpreting something here? I understand GURPS is a system that requires a lot of GM management to run smoothly sometimes, but this just seems like an odd cost/benefit relationship if I'm reading it right. (Especially as there's no "Can Be Dodged" modifier that I can find anywhere...)

[Ulzgoroth]

I don't think it helps a great deal, but I would note that area effect attacks don't automatically hit. You have to make an attack to deliver them to the desired location...and if you try to hit someone and they dodge, your attack isn't necessarily going to go off right next to them!

However, you can make your attack on the space your target is in rather than the target themselves. Spaces don't dodge, and you get a bonus to hit too.

[Sdrolion]

Yeah, I noticed that about the spaces recently. O_O That's a +4 bonus, right? That's quite considerable, enough for someone with moderate skill (and it isn't all that hard to get high skill, but that's beside the point) to absorb a decent range penalty.

[munin]

The Bombardment limitation (p. B111) will cause an area effect to attack some targets and not others. The Blockable limitation (p. P110) will allow Block or Parry active defenses. Resistible, DX (pp. B115, P105) will allow a DX roll to avoid the effect (without diving or retreating) -- Resistible, Dodge might be legal. Another way to build an "area effect" that can be dodged is to use Rapid Fire and require that the attack use the Spraying Fire mechanic (p. B409) to attack multiple hexes.

[Sdrolion]

Originally Posted by munin

The Bombardment limitation (p. B111) will cause an area effect to attack some targets and not others. The Blockable limitation (p. P110) will allow Block or Parry active defenses. Resistible, DX (pp. B115, P105) will allow a DX roll to avoid the effect (without diving or retreating) -- Resistible, Dodge might be legal. Another way to build an "area effect" that can be dodged is to use Rapid Fire and require that the attack use the Spraying Fire mechanic (p. B409) to attack multiple hexes.

I hadn't caught the Resistible (DX) limitation--that's an interesting option, though actually it'll tend to be worse for the AE than if you just allowed dodge, probably (but Resistable--Dodge might be interesting for that). If I'm reading right, it starts at -5 and for -5% and then you get another -5% for each +1...so no modifier would be -30%, right? Technically that's supposed to only be for Poison/Fatigue attacks, but I guess applying it for physical attacks with Dodge is somewhat valid, though -30% does seem a little high considering that similar limitations (Blockable and its further limitation to make it parryable) are nowhere near that value.

But yeah...it just seems odd to me that the attack by default is so unstoppable...normally you have to build on the attack's power with modifiers to make it particularly unstoppable (something I advise generally not allowing unless you're going for that kind of style), but with an AE attack, it's strong to begin with and you have to apply limiters (or require them, if you're the GM and worried about this) to reduce its problematic nature.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Sdrolion

But yeah...it just seems odd to me that the attack by default is so unstoppable...normally you have to build on the attack's power with modifiers to make it particularly unstoppable (something I advise generally not allowing unless you're going for that kind of style), but with an AE attack, it's strong to begin with and you have to apply limiters (or require them, if you're the GM and worried about this) to reduce its problematic nature.

Well, it's not unstoppable, it just requires either undependable circumstance or certain properties well outside the human norm to escape it.

I suspect there's some discount involved for the potential inconvenience of an area of effect. (AoE 2 yd radius + Dissipation does full damage in a 1 yd radius and is +0% net.)

[CousinX]

Originally Posted by Sdrolion

But yeah...it just seems odd to me that the attack by default is so unstoppable...normally you have to build on the attack's power with modifiers to make it particularly unstoppable (something I advise generally not allowing unless you're going for that kind of style), but with an AE attack, it's strong to begin with and you have to apply limiters (or require them, if you're the GM and worried about this) to reduce its problematic nature.

Retreating and Diving for Cover should (realistically) be the only ways to escape an area attack anyway. In a cinematic campaign, I might allow something creative, like an Acrobatic dodge (or Flying Leap, etc) to try and get out of the area, or a Block to use a shield for partial cover, etc. Even in a realistic campaign, I'd allow "hitting the deck" to at least reduce damage -- Diving for Cover just to get to a prone position, effectively "covering" your front with the ground, and reducing your profile for frag damage. That's pretty much what they teach soldiers to do if they're getting shelled/bombed/etc where there's no cover ... and while it's not a perfect defense, and certainly doesn't save everyone who does it, it might be the best option available.

I agree with your point, though ... if your interpretations is correct, and it seems to me that it is, RAW AE either seems waaaay underpriced or waaaay overpowered.

EDIT: when you think about it, though, RAW AE isn't very realistic: damage that doesn't dissipate from the center, but does uniform damage through a set area, and simply "ends" at the border of the area. Most realistic area attacks are going to have some other modifier - Cone or Explosion, etc, which function by more realistic rules.

[Bruno]

Straight AE attacks are GREAT for smashing an area with Gogs Giant Foot ;)

Summoning your god to stomp on the opposition isn't very realistic, but it's a pretty straight forward Innate Attack - realistic effects aren't the majority use here, except with toxic attacks and possibly FP attacks.

* I can't remember the name of the orcish deity. It's a spell from Warhammer anyways - a big god goes stomping across the battlefield and anyone caught under his feet suffers the obvious consequences. Can be simulated by putting your 4 year old on the game table.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Bruno

* I can't remember the name of the orcish deity. It's a spell from Warhammer anyways - a big god goes stomping across the battlefield and anyone caught under his feet suffers the obvious consequences. Can be simulated by putting your 4 year old on the game table.

Gork or Mork. Either one. Both will do, if you have twins.

An AE isn't, really, a realistic attack. It's a comic book ability, or representing something very large hitting an area (fly swatters in that Vermin campaign).

[cccwebs]

* I can't remember the name of the orcish deity. It's a spell from Warhammer anyways - a big god goes stomping across the battlefield and anyone caught under his feet suffers the obvious consequences. Can be simulated by putting your 4 year old on the game table.

<em pulls out wife's copy of Warhammer Armies:Orcs & Goblins>
You're looking for Gork and Mork. Specifically, The Foot of Gork and Gork's Warpath.