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Old 01-03-2023, 06:17 AM   #11
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Talent/Spell of the Week: Aid

Blimmer, Dwarf wizard, age 20
ST 12, DX 11, IQ 9, MA 10
Talents: Crossbow, Literacy
Spells: Aid, Dark Vision, Detect Magic, Fire, Staff
Languages: Common, Dwarvish
Weapons: steel light crossbow (2d), maul staff (1d+2, 1d occult)
Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d-2)
Equipment: 20 silver quarrels, middle class dwarf clothes, Belt pouch, 4 torches, 2 Molotails, backpack, 2 skins of wine, 7 days rations, 3 healing potions, 95 silvers and 10 copper coins.
Special note: Blimmer is designed to support your average Legacy edition team of Dagger Expert ST 6 elf heroes who all know Illusion. Blimmer will happily cast Aid for their illusions and Dark Vision on these heroes so they can scout ahead for slimes. At the end of the adventure poor old lonely Blimmer will return home with all of the loot.


The biggest drawback of Aid is that when it fails it wastes a point of fatigue. This won't be a problem for Blimmer once he's flipped his first 700 xp into dx.
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Last edited by hcobb; 01-03-2023 at 06:38 AM.
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Old 01-03-2023, 06:37 AM   #12
Bill_in_IN
 
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Default Re: Talent/Spell of the Week: Aid

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Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
How often do you see Aid being used in combat situations?
Frankly, never. Consequently our group's players and GMs (over the course of 20 some years) rarely if ever bothered to give it to any characters, except occasionally just to list on their curriculum vitae if their backstory included formal training at one of our institutes of magic. We mostly just considered it a wasted slot that could have gone to a spell the wizard (or party) might really need.

The reason we all found it so useless is because the rules of TFT force starting 32 point wizards to be anemic. Unless it's going to be a very low IQ wizard or a very ineffectual one, neither of which anyone ever wanted to play, it's going to start with a ST of 8 or 9 -- 10 at the very most -- and that little ST doesn't go very far when you're casting spells, especially the combat-useful spells. By the time you've spent 2 or 3 points on spells and taken a couple hits, you're on death's door and at -3 DX for low ST to boot. So nobody was about to start sharing the little ST they had with anyone else.

Now it might get to be a little different in Legacy ITL because of Staff Mana, but even then it won't make much difference for new wizards unless they can survive long enough to actually acquire significant Staff Mana.

The only real significance of the Aid spell in TFT seems to be as the deus ex machina that makes magic item creation possible, while providing jobs for apprentice wizards. I never really liked the economics of all that, but it was academic anyway for my group because the consensus of our 3 GMs was that characters were never allowed to create magic items. In our Secondary World (to use Tolkien's term for what most of us call a "campaign") all enchanted items were artifacts from a lost age, and could only be introduced by the GM in the context of a story. So that was the other reason Aid never mattered to us.
You mean that no one saw the benefit of a wizard bringing an entourage of apprentices with Aid Spell along for an adventure?

I sort of did that with my Goblin and Giant wizard pair. The Giant is sort of like an entourage. At least, the Giant can swing his tree branch-sized staff for significant damage which does make foes think twice about closing in on them. From my experiment, I can say that it works but it's not very efficient. A Giant Wizard casting Aid spells so that a ST 6 and IQ 18 Goblin Wizard can cast 3D6 Wizard's Wraths and other higher IQ spells requires much more time to recuperate fatigue. However, I found it to be a workable combination even with it's inefficiency.
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Old 01-03-2023, 08:21 AM   #13
Axly Suregrip
 
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Default Re: Talent/Spell of the Week: Aid

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Blimmer, Dwarf wizard
Let me start by saying that is a creatively created character. Very cool. He has a lot more he can do than just Aid (spells, crossbow, molotails) so it give the player more to do than just Aid. Could be fun.

But...

These issues jump out about Blimmer:
- A Dwarf being basically a servant for Elves. I would require the squad leader to have diplomacy. Still does not feel right.
- Blimmer cannot cast Aid while holding the crossbow, or the torch & molotails.
- Did he pay x10 for the silver crossbow?
- In caves do you really want a DX 11 person throwing molotails? My group of player have gotten burned doing this. (snicker. true though). May want a full waterskin to help put out the oil-soaked burning friend.
- Keep track of what is in his hands. Crossbow, torch and/or molotails then no casting (needs hands free for all his spells given IQ). If it is a molotail he wants then he needs both a lit torch and a molotail ready but you cannot just ready a torch & have it lit. So, start with the lit torch in hand & drop it when needing to cast. Not complicated but a bit to stay on top of. I currently have a player with a molotail throwing wiz, and it is a bit of a juggling act with the lit torch, staff & molotail. Once he has casted in a fight we need to keep track of where he drops his torch. etc.
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Old 01-03-2023, 11:04 AM   #14
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Talent/Spell of the Week: Aid

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Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
[B]
The reason we all found it so useless is because the rules of TFT force starting 32 point wizards to be anemic. Unless it's going to be a very low IQ wizard or a very ineffectual one, neither of which anyone ever wanted to play, it's going to start with a ST of 8 or 9 -- 10 at the very most -- and that little ST doesn't go very far when you're casting spells, especially the combat-useful spells. By the time you've spent 2 or 3 points on spells and taken a couple hits, you're on death's door and at -3 DX for low ST to boot. So nobody was about to start sharing the little ST they had with anyone else.
Just because Aid is IQ 9 doesn't mean that it can't prove useful to a character already far advanced beyond 32 points. If you plan on doing some searching or scrying, or anticipate needing to assert control over an elemental you created the day before, you might find Aid pretty handy to buff your IQ.
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Old 01-03-2023, 08:08 PM   #15
Steve Plambeck
 
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Default Re: Talent/Spell of the Week: Aid

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Blimmer, Dwarf wizard, age 20
ST 12, DX 11, IQ 9, MA 10
Talents: Crossbow, Literacy...
A great build to be sure, but not a great wizard. So many of the more attractive spells aren't available until IQ 10 through 11 (Lock/Knock, Dazzle, Shadow, Wall, Illusion, Reverse Missiles, even the humble Rope). You don't even get a decent missile spell until you're at IQ 12 to take Fireball. The beauty of playing a wizard is having this diverse bag of tricks. At IQ 9 with ST 12 you can have Summon Wolf, and you even have the ST to run it a few turns, but that's about as flashy as you can get. Our players quickly tired of playing that kind of wizard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN View Post
You mean that no one saw the benefit of a wizard bringing an entourage of apprentices with Aid Spell along for an adventure?
Wait, what? I can bring as many PCs as I want? Thank you GM! Nah, it was up to the GM, but players were usually limited to 2 characters per adventure. We usually had four and sometimes five players, so the board got crowded fast. Sure if all but one player brought apprentice wizards with Aid spells, the starring wizard with the high IQ could have a lot of fun, but everyone else might get just a little bored. If my wizard could bring a small army, I think (know) I'd rather bring a bunch of guys with halberds and chainmail instead of a gaggle of apprentice wizards - LOL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN View Post
I sort of did that with my Goblin and Giant wizard pair. The Giant is sort of like an entourage.
I love that pairing and I think it's brilliant! Wish I'd thought of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
Just because Aid is IQ 9 doesn't mean that it can't prove useful to a character already far advanced beyond 32 points. If you plan on doing some searching or scrying, or anticipate needing to assert control over an elemental you created the day before, you might find Aid pretty handy to buff your IQ.
Agreed, it's better to have the Aid spell and not need it than it is to need it and not have it. I gave it to my own PC wizards, just never had much call to use it.
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Old 01-04-2023, 07:32 PM   #16
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Talent/Spell of the Week: Aid

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
Just because Aid is IQ 9 doesn't mean that it can't prove useful to a character already far advanced beyond 32 points. If you plan on doing some searching or scrying, or anticipate needing to assert control over an elemental you created the day before, you might find Aid pretty handy to buff your IQ.
Yes, Aid is great for scrying. I've never thought about buffing IQ for that control elemental role, but that's a good idea.

Aid is also good for creating elementals or zombies. Gives them a bit more juice.
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Old 01-05-2023, 11:23 AM   #17
Bill_in_IN
 
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Default Re: Talent/Spell of the Week: Aid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
A great build to be sure, but not a great wizard. So many of the more attractive spells aren't available until IQ 10 through 11 (Lock/Knock, Dazzle, Shadow, Wall, Illusion, Reverse Missiles, even the humble Rope). You don't even get a decent missile spell until you're at IQ 12 to take Fireball. The beauty of playing a wizard is having this diverse bag of tricks. At IQ 9 with ST 12 you can have Summon Wolf, and you even have the ST to run it a few turns, but that's about as flashy as you can get. Our players quickly tired of playing that kind of wizard.

Wait, what? I can bring as many PCs as I want? Thank you GM! Nah, it was up to the GM, but players were usually limited to 2 characters per adventure. We usually had four and sometimes five players, so the board got crowded fast. Sure if all but one player brought apprentice wizards with Aid spells, the starring wizard with the IQ could have a lot of fun, but everyone else might get just a little bored. If my wizard could bring a small army, I think (know) I'd rather bring a bunch of guys with halberds and chainmail instead of a gaggle of apprentice wizards - LOL!

I love that pairing and I think it's brilliant! Wish I'd thought of that.

.
I was being sarcastic in my mention of an entourage apprentices. Thanks for playing along.

I will elaborate on that pair later in a thread that Henry started on a Giant apprentice. It's not efficient but it is effective.

Here is the thread.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=187658

Last edited by Bill_in_IN; 01-05-2023 at 05:48 PM.
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Old 01-05-2023, 11:27 AM   #18
Bill_in_IN
 
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Default Re: Talent/Spell of the Week: Aid

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Yes, Aid is great for scrying. I've never thought about buffing IQ for that control elemental role, but that's a good idea.

Aid is also good for creating elementals or zombies. Gives them a bit more juice.
I concur. Anthony's post has made me think more about using the Aid spell to buff IQ or DX as opposed to adding ST to another wizard.
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Old 01-05-2023, 12:57 PM   #19
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Talent/Spell of the Week: Aid

ITL 162: "Other effects – like potions and Aid spells – are cumulative with magic items, but only to the limit of 5."


Does this apply to Aid by itself and if so how are you casting fatigue 20+ spells?
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Last edited by hcobb; 01-05-2023 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 01-05-2023, 02:07 PM   #20
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Talent/Spell of the Week: Aid

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
ITL 162: "Other effects like potions and Aid spells are cumulative with magic items, but only to the limit of 5."


Does this apply to Aid by itself and if so how are you casting fatigue 20+ spells?
As said in the opening post, Aiding ST is not straightforward. Perhaps one could try to make sense of the application of the Rule of Five to Aid by saying that their physical ST can't be raised more than 5 with Aid, but their mana continues to increase? Otherwise, that Dissolve Enchantment is going to be able to be deployed by a very elite group of sorcerers.
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