[Sorcery] Permanent advantages on self only not using Affliction

[Ninja Monkey]

Advice please on how to handle the following using Sorcery?

If a Sorcerer wanted to grant themselves an advantage but never to do this for others, then they would want a spell that avoids a build based on Afflictions, as that would be more expensive, presumably. Elsewhere in this forum it was suggested that the Sorcerer buys the advantage outright, with-10% cost for magic limitation. That's fine if Powers is an option to freely take advantages. However, where it is not, how does the Sorcerer build the spell to cast only on themselves and make it permanent?

Would this be handled as an Enchantment or as a Spell with duration: permanent?

To be clear, character points will still be needed to gain the advantage. I'm just looking for advice on how to handle the mechanics.

I'm aware the Sorcerer would be left with a spell they'd never cast again. So they would need to take that into consideration.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Ninja Monkey

Advice please on how to handle the following using Sorcery?

If a Sorcerer wanted to grant themselves an advantage but never to do this for others, then they would want a spell that avoids a build based on Afflictions, as that would be more expensive, presumably. Elsewhere in this forum it was suggested that the Sorcerer buys the advantage outright, with-10% cost for magic limitation. That's fine if Powers is an option to freely take advantages. However, where it is not, how does the Sorcerer build the spell to cast only on themselves and make it permanent?

Would this be handled as an Enchantment or as a Spell with duration: permanent?

To be clear, character points will still be needed to gain the advantage. I'm just looking for advice on how to handle the mechanics.

I'm aware the Sorcerer would be left with a spell they'd never cast again. So they would need to take that into consideration.

This honestly just sounds like the bolded but with extra steps and/or prerequisites. Or, more importantly, just buying the advantage directly is the end result, and how you get there is largely up to probably roleplaying if this isn't part of the backstory. If it's unusual for a sorcerer to do, then UB might be a requirement, but if the advantage is going to cost points, that alone means that just buying the new advantage outright makes the most sense, and you can even flavor it as a 'permanent spell' (mind, if Permanent and Instantaneous mean different things like it does in Magic, then I'd just rule the caster gets the points back from buying the advantage if the spell is terminated, or just call it Instantaneous).

[Ninja Monkey]

Thank you Kirbwarrior. The intention is how to handle post character creation. Not sure how we'd handle roleplay gaining advantages with my group if all they need to do is pay the CPs.

For context, the setting is a low fantasy feel with magic secret and use rare. So no magic shops etc. Sorcerers start with UB for their ability. I'm basing Sorcery on Pvaric magic from Harm Master but without the convocations.

In HM one would develop the spell, cast it and note the results. However, to ensure balance and avoid points inflation, I want the results to be paid for or my group would just conquer a kingdom after a couple of sessions spent permanently buffing themselves.

So it is how to handle the spell creation I'm looking for help on.

Hmmm, perhaps I could grant them the end results for free but they pay for the spell. That way the spell becomes like a UB and it puts a break on the speed of development. I need to think on that some more.

[WingedKagouti]

Originally Posted by Ninja Monkey

Thank you Kirbwarrior. The intention is how to handle post character creation. Not sure how we'd handle roleplay gaining advantages with my group if all they need to do is pay the CPs.

You'd essentially handle it the same way you would handle them picking up a new skill, improving an attribute or acquiring any new advantage (that isn't an adventure reward). If they already have the CP and a plausible justification for the improvement, you would at most need a bit of RP before allowing them to spend the CP.

In general, do not hand out free CP/abilities for the players pulling off rituals they instigated themselves. Even if the setting/magic system says they "should" gain that power for properly performing the rituals, you're under no obligation to have it go right if they can't pay for it with CP they've earned.

If they lack the CP to buy the ability, they have a couple of options including a) saving up CP over the course of several sessions before attempting to acquire the ability, b) they could buy a more restricted version that they do have enough points for (if plausible), c) they could go into CP debt which means they don't get CP after each session until paid off (use with extreme care and certainly don't allow hundreds of CP worth of debt) or d) they could accrue new Disadvantages to cover the cost (if abused can lead to severely crippled characters).

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Ninja Monkey

Thank you Kirbwarrior. The intention is how to handle post character creation. Not sure how we'd handle roleplay gaining advantages with my group if all they need to do is pay the CPs.

Quest time! In order for this to work, they need three eggs from the crystal dragons in the Far East, a scabbard blessed by the High Priest Of the God of Magic and the feather from a Roc. How to get that? Well, that's not your problem...

[Ninja Monkey]

Thanks both. Now Anders has me thinking. I could make these Secret spells, obtained as rewards or as quest items (grimoir) etc.

[zoncxs]

Another way is improvising spells. Specifically Hardcore Improvisation (Sorcery p.7)

[Ninja Monkey]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

Another way is improvising spells. Specifically Hardcore Improvisation (Sorcery p.7)

Yes, that works. Thanks.

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by Ninja Monkey

Yes, that works. Thanks.

Rock on, Also! There are ways to allow one to improvise a spell that is out of your price range.

Lets say your sorcerer has Sorcerous Empowerment 3 [40] and wants to cast Utter Wall ver 3 (giving the wall DR 36 instead of DR 12).

That spells full cost is 192 points. Well beyond what can be normally improvised!

That means we need to do Hardcore improvising, but still the spell cost more (after all we are limited to 40 points total for hardcore improvising).

And this is where "Character Point-Powered Abilities" (Power-Ups 8 Limitations p.9) comes into play.

With that 192 becomes 38.4 points, round up to 39 points. Just below our target.

the roll will have -10 for 100% cost compared to Sorcerous Empowerment.

So the spellcaster rolls against:

(Will + Talent - 10 + Any extra FP) and spends character points (minimum 1) depending on the situation to cast it.

[Varyon]

In theory, one could build an Affliction with Permanent Duration, then divide cost by 5 for being Single Use. Combined with the divisor for being an Alternate Ability, you're looking at purchasing that for 1/25th the cost. Of course, there is a risk there - for a Beneficial Affliction (which this is), you have to pass an HT check for it to work, so if you fail that check, those points are wasted (it's Single Use, not Single successful Use).

Of course, that's essentially still just a case of "pay the points, get the ability." You mention you want the characters to have to do research to create new spells, which implies you want them to burn some time on it. My suggestion, then, is to come up with a value of hours-to-points that works for you, which is the amount of time the character must spend training, studying, researching, etc before he can spend a character point on some Advantage. Halve the time if they have a teacher, quarter it if they're going through intensive training. If using Improvement Through Study, let any time spent here to justify spending character points to count toward that as well. I'd suggest 8 hours per point for self-study (thus 4 hours with a teacher, 2 with intensive training). If desired, allow the characters to shortcut the process somewhat if they're using magic to permanently buff themselves. For example, let's say a character wants to gain a permanent +1 to ST. Normally, this would involve some sort of physical training, and at [10], this would take 80 hours (10 days) by oneself, in addition to needing to spend 10 character points. Affliction (+1 ST +100%; Permanent +300%; Sorcery -15%; Single Use x1/5) [9.7] would be doable with Sorcery 1, and as a Known Spell would cost [1.94] (which would normally round up to 2, but as we're using hours rather than points, we'll retain fractions). That would take 15.52 hours (1d 7h 31m 12s) of self-study, saving a little over 8 days of research, but at the end of that the character would need to pass the relevant HT check; failing this means having to start over (although unless your HT is abysmal or you are having a really bad run of luck, it'll still be faster than weight training). You still have to pay the 10 points, of course. Note that, due to the way Affliction is built, you're actually much better off increasing a given stat by multiple levels at once rather than one at a time. Consider if you instead wanted to get a permanent +5 to ST. Physical training would take 400 hours* (50 days, but you'd see a +1 to ST every 10 days). Casting a +1 ST permanent boost 5 times would take at least 77.6 hours (9d 5h 36m), probably more to account for failures (divide it by your chance of success on each roll to get the average amount of time; with HT 10 - 50%=0.5 - you're looking at 155.2 hours - 19d 3h 12m). Affliction (+5 ST +500%; Permanent +300%; Sorcery -15%; Single Use x1/5) [17.7] would still only require Sorcery 1 (which lets you know spells worth up to [20] IIRC), and would cost [3.54] as a Known Spell; that would only take 28.32 hours (3d 4h 19m 12s) per attempt.

Hardcore Improvisation isn't an option with Single Use (they're basically single use already), although you could manage it without that modifier tacked on. Above, the +1 ST Affliction is worth [48.5] (round up to [49]), requiring at minimum Sorcery 4 to improvise (at -10 to the Will roll). +5 ST, meanwhile, is worth [87.5], requiring at minimum Sorcery 8 (again at -10 to the Will roll). Do note this will largely result in sorcerers being able to bypass much of the "must invest time to spend character points" system from above, at least once they're powerful enough to improvise the necessary spell. Even a sorcerer with average Will and FP and no skill in Thaumatology (but Sorcery 4) could make an attempt for +1 ST every 100 minutes (spending all 10 FP, then resting; note the amount of time the power spends shutdown with a critical failure is less than this, so can be ignored). With effective Will 7 for each attempt - 16.2%=0.162 - he should succeed after around 10.3 hours (1d 2h 18m). He'll still need to pass the HT check at the end, but with HT 10 he should succeed by the second attempt, putting time at roughly 20.6 hours (2d 4h 36m). A more capable sorcerer could manage far better (Sorcery 4, Will 12, Thaumatology at IQ+2, HT 12, and 12 FP; effective Will pumping all 12 FP in is 16 - 98.14%=0.9814 - and HT gives 74.07%=0.7407 chance of success there; character will most likely manage it with the first try, maybe the second, for 120 to 240 minutes of rest needed after pumping one's ST up by a point).

*Note here that this is enough time to gain 1 character point through Improvement Through Study (Training in this case), which I'd let you spend or bank toward any skill/Advantage your training would have been able to improve - various "physical training" types of skill (weight lifting, running, etc), ST or one of its subsets, HT or one of its subsets, Fit/Very Fit, etc.