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Old 12-13-2017, 03:53 PM   #1
Henchman99942's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2012
Default Traveller Stateroom Space Question

So, I am reading this from GURPS Traveller Interstellar Wars (4th Edition)...

'Quarters and Miscellaneous' Page 198.

"Crew and passengers need quarters to live in during travel. Several classes
of accomodation are available. The space taken up by these systems is
only about 50% allocated to living space; the rest is taken up by common
areas (corridors, galleys, lounges, and so on) and life support equipment."

Does this mean that: The listed spaces for each stateroom represents half of the total required living space - and that a starship must allocate double this value of 'spaces' (dtons of volume) when designing a ship?

Or does this mean that: The listed spaces for each stateroom represents the total required living space - and that the ships deckplans should have actual staterooms take up half this volume, with the other half corridors, galleys, lounges, and so on.

Thanks for the assist.
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Old 12-13-2017, 03:58 PM   #2
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Default Re: Traveller Stateroom Space Question

Originally Posted by Henchman99942 View Post
The listed spaces for each stateroom represents the total required living space - and that the ships deckplans should have actual staterooms take up half this volume, with the other half corridors, galleys, lounges, and so on.
This one. Four dtons is 200-250 square feet of deck space, where a double bedroom is more like 100 sf.
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Old 12-13-2017, 09:58 PM   #3
jason taylor
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Default Re: Traveller Stateroom Space Question

How much could be freed if the crew are willing to sleep in barracks-like arrangements(without separate staterooms, but in the cliché bunks or hammocks that is)?
"The navy could probably win a war without coffee but would prefer not to try"-Samuel Eliot Morrison
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:28 AM   #4
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Default Re: Traveller Stateroom Space Question

Interstellar Wars (p. 198) already lists a bunkroom module: accommodations and life support for 10, in a 2-dton package. Once again, half of that volume is common space, corridors, etc.
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Old 12-14-2017, 04:51 PM   #5
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Default Re: Traveller Stateroom Space Question

GT:Starships has a bunkroom for up to 16 people.
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Old 12-29-2017, 07:43 AM   #6
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Default Re: Traveller Stateroom Space Question

I am using ISW which has a bunkroom listed as having 10 occupants, displacing 2 spaces (dtons or dʌ), massing 0.5 tons (again, I am using metric tons) and costing 0.01 Mcr. GT:Starships lists a bunkroom (at TL10) as displacing 4 spaces, massing 4.80 s-tons, costing 0.018 MCr and using 0.16 MWs.

I get that the stats listed for staterooms include extra space allocated for recreation areas, lounges, hallways, etc... As for life-support, I am using the 0.5 meter space between the 2.5 m ceiling and the 3m height for a standard '1.5 m square' of deck plan for such systems. And for a stateroom's deckplan footprint, I am using 1/2 that listed space.

Note: A space (dton or dʌ) is two deckplan squares, which amounts to 1.5 m long x 1.5 m wide x 3 m tall. I am using 13.5 cubic meters rather than GURPS's 500 cubic feet. But it amounts to the same basic system.

But... Something like bunkrooms are already fairly tight quarters... I cannot see, and personally will not use, the same 50% rule for them. If I am making a ship that is all bunkrooms and no staterooms, I will permit the ceiling space to contain enough life support for them, but they will take up the entire listed volume in terms of their deckplan footprint. Additionally, If the ratio of people to volume of living quarters exceeds a certain number, then additional living spaces must be added using the stats for stateroom (or half staterooms) to allow for people to be able to move around. Standard staterooms have an occupants to volume ratio of 1:2 (2 people per 4 dʌ). I am fine with this being reduced to 1:1, but beyond that, you are literally tripping over each other. A crew may put up with it (or a bunch of refugees who would be dead otherwise) but not ordinary paying customers. The only modern equivalent I can think of are cruise ships, but I cannot find anything that focuses on living space specifically (only total ship tonnage).

GT:Starships says: Some ships also have much more room than others...
room your vessel has for the crew... Divide total number of dtons devoted to a crew's comfort (staterooms, bunkrooms, recreational facilities) by the total crew not in low berths. Spartan (2.00 to 2.25 dʌ /person). Average (2.26 to 3.00). Above average (3.01 to 4.00). Luxurious (4.01+) Anything below 2.00 dʌ /person is considered cramped and will result in a -1 penalty to all shipboard operations.

I did manage to visually construct a standard bunkroom and squeeze 10 bunks into it, and even have room for a very compact water closet, but nothing else. I cannot accept that 10 people can make use of HALF of the listed space - unless that HALF is the central walkway people use to get to their bunks.

On a side note, the ship I have been designing is finished. I am happy with the design, performance and deckplans. The 'Ossaduo' is a TL10, 200 dton (dʌ) Explorer Class Merchant Trader. It is a Vargr ship of standard design using an Airframe and boasting an (almost) 100 dʌ cargobay.
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Old 12-29-2017, 06:18 PM   #7
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Default Re: Traveller Stateroom Space Question

Making the 10 racks fit into 2 Td is pretty tight. But it is doable.

Taking the USN 6'4" x 3' x 2'6" as standard and rounding up to next 5 cm... 1.9x50.95x0.75, then adding a locker off the end...
we get about 2.1x0.95x0.75. 4 tall. u shaped well... can fit 12 in...
A   C
L   C
Now, if we want more space... 2 bunkrooms, 4 racks high, 20 racks, leving 1/3 of the space external to the two. Note that C racks are end-open, while B are half-side open, and A are either, depending upon whether there's facing bunkroom space...
A   C C   E
Put 4 in a cluster, and you easily get extra space outside.

A   C C   E

F   H H   J
(All ascii art assumes 1m grids.

Last edited by ak_aramis; 12-29-2017 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 01-23-2018, 11:15 AM   #8
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Default Re: Traveller Stateroom Space Question

With real life passenger ships in the age of steam/sail there is little allocation to personal space. On the SS Great Britain, the cabins are broadly 2m cubes. All the bunks/cots are 2m x 0.75m. The level of luxury seems to be determined by how many occupants per cabin.

A cabin 1 for first class. As the cots were about .75m off the floor, this would give .75 x .75 x 2 m storage under. There is also space on the bulkhead above the bed for some personal possessions to be wall mounted (a small bookshelf, a gun etc.). If you weren't claustrophobic you could put in maybe .5 x .75 x 2 m of storage above the bed. This leaves 1.25 x 2 of floor space to move around and put in some furniture (a bureau or a clothing cabinet). The advantage of such a confined space is that you only need a small space allocated to move around the cabin maybe .75m x 2m in front of the cot will allow you to access every part of the room. That leaves 0.5 x 2 x 2m for storage on the opposite wall. You might even put some more storage (coat pegs and a trunk) in that corridor space at the end of the cabin furthest from the door as you don't really need to access the wall itself. If you had this sort of cabin however you might leave it largely open to allow you an illusion of space (and if you are lucky a view out of a porthole). Your cabin opens onto a spacious salon room with skylights, couches, tables etc. There is probably an equal amount of space to walk about as there is total cabin space on your deck. There are bathrooms and lavatories that are shared between the first class passengers, but obviously not at the same time. You can have as much privacy as you can stand.

Lower class accommodation would have twin bunk beds in place of the cot. This would restrict the space you had for stuff on the wall but it could still be personalized to a degree. The floor space and under bed stowage is rather more limited if shared between two, but if these were a couple or good friends then it might not be too much of a hardship. The walkway space would be the same. Your door opens onto a corridor running the length of the ship with cabins arranged either side of it. Inner cabins would not have a porthole and so you might as well fill up that wall with personal possessions. You are in the working part of the ship and the corridor is actually quite wide. The corridor opens onto the dining room which is your common space when it is not being used for dining. You have second hand light from the light shafts descending from the better cabins in the deck above. You probably have the same area as the better accommodation above but you are sharing it with twice as many people. You also have shared bathrooms and toilets. You only have to negotiate with your room mate for some privacy.

The steerage classes might have 4 or even 6 bunks to the same space, 2 or 3 stacked on either side of a central 0.5m walkway (sqeezeway really). Now everything becomes a bit of squeeze. The only storage is under the lowest bunk which you are sharing with 2-3 others. You also have a little bit of wall space at the head and foot of the bed, you might have something small on the long wall your bunk is attached to, but it will need to be flat or you will keep bumping into it in your sleep. There is hanging storage at the end of the "walkway" furthest from the door. Of course if you are travelling stowage class you probably don't have much anyway and what you do have won't be left lying around for someone else to take. Your cabins are arranged by the dozen into strips running the width of the ship like terraced houses. They open onto a central walkway 1 m wide which itself joins another running the length of the ship at either end. You will have cubes either side of yours and another row backed onto your row. At one end is your common areas, the communal mess (you cook your own food) and the washing facilities both clothes and personal. You have a head that you all share. Everyone in stowage shares these areas. You not only have less space, you are also sharing it with far more people. You have no privacy other than that which you can create by force of personality (and maybe some sheets hung between cabins). You probably have a lot of arguments.

In addition to the dedicated common areas each passenger has a stowage allowance. This is stored below decks as cargo. With the relevant crews permission you can access it and transfer stuff from your personal cabin storage to "off-line" storage. You will be paying to ship this cargo separately so even someone travelling middle class might have bulky trade goods far in excess of their personal cabin storage. As stowage class you probably don't have anything as you had to sell it all to buy the ticket. As upper class you probably have servants in middle class to manage that stuff for you.

You can also use above deck space. The above deck is divided in half fore and aft the stowage classes may not cross the line amidships. This is probably their largest common area (it's less useful when the weather is up and given this is the Atlantic that is probably a lot of the time. Still you'll be puking over the side rather than into your cot, so may it's not too bad). Upper and middle classes hare their half of the upper deck, but it will still be a large area pro-rata and it is in addition to all their other personal spaces. Hopefully the middle classes will remember to keep a respectful distance allowing the upper classes the appropriate space to relax.

This accommodation was for up to six months at a time on long voyages. You got to get off and walk about at ports though so it probably matches the endurance of humans between jumps.

If you follow this model then it becomes clear that maybe 50% of passenger spaces are not necessarily encompassed within the cabins themselves. We tend to think in terms of hotel rooms with en-suites but that isn't necessarily the case (though it might be for High Passage). Even the wealthy need to socialise occasionally and you don't necessarily want to invite people to your private rooms. You will need a salon or two as neutral ground. For middle passage the cabins can be small with maybe a toilet/washbasin (think Firefly). Anything else is probably common (to varying degrees). Plenty of opportunity for mid-voyage intrigue and adventure.

Obviously our steerage class passengers are actually cargo so we just need a power supply and a hole to put them in.
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