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Old 12-01-2023, 09:17 PM   #1
b-dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Default Dungeon Delver Class

I have played an adventure with my son who is a first time player. Running his player was difficult for him because of all the skills. If I were to make classes for new players I would use a totally different approach than what the DF line does. I would start with the basic delver class first as the main template. That way a new player could use his delvers skills to navigate the dungeon and by doing so learn how the system works. I would have the majority of points be for things like climbing, opening locks, stealth, silence, shadowing etc. then a smaller amount on the D&D class stuff. Like magic delver would have a level of Magery and a few spells, a clerical delver would have Power Investiture and a few spells, a fighter delver would have extra strength and weapon master and so on. The best way to learn is to be able to practice skills in a dungeon without the threat of death until the PC knows how to play properly. GURPS plays differently than AD&D for sure and there is a steep learning curve to master. So in my opinion it is better to learn in a dungeon with dungeon skills before large scale combat.

Maybe a 75 to125 point delver or Dungeoneer class would be great to start with. He could navigate the dungeon pretty well and even be able to have a little combat too but later he could start to focus on learning spell casting or becoming a fighter or thief. The beginning dungeon could be more empty too so that the beginning delver can master his skills and when he does he can start adding magic or weapon abilities and so on. Just my opinionÖ
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Old 12-02-2023, 01:23 AM   #2
Juan
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Madrid, Spain
Default Re: Dungeon Delver Class

Quote:
Originally Posted by b-dog View Post
Maybe a 75 to125 point delver or Dungeoneer class would be great to start with. He could navigate the dungeon pretty well and even be able to have a little combat too but later he could start to focus on learning spell casting or becoming a fighter or thief. The beginning dungeon could be more empty too so that the beginning delver can master his skills and when he does he can start adding magic or weapon abilities and so on. Just my opinion…
Delvers to grow is, IMO, the best entry. Erika the thief in Fast delvers is a pregen PC which adjusts to what you are saying. Swashbuckler (Fast delvers, again) and Bard (pregen in Smart delvers) are good choices to include if playing a 2/3 PC party. A bunch of thieves play great too if you do not want to bug the jump in with lots of rule explanation.

Start with the 62 points version if you want not to overwhelm them.

Both books published by Gaming Ballistic. You can find them in Warehouse 23.

If your son is young, you could play without advantages and disadvantages and introduce them slowly as if there were the Feats mechanic in other games. Adding one advantage after each adventure works fine.

As for the stealth, disarming traps, adventure with no combat start, I do think it is a marvelous approach to introduce the system in a first game.
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Last edited by Juan; 12-02-2023 at 01:29 AM.
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Old 12-02-2023, 08:54 AM   #3
b-dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Default Re: Dungeon Delver Class

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Originally Posted by Juan View Post
Delvers to grow is, IMO, the best entry. Erika the thief in Fast delvers is a pregen PC which adjusts to what you are saying. Swashbuckler (Fast delvers, again) and Bard (pregen in Smart delvers) are good choices to include if playing a 2/3 PC party. A bunch of thieves play great too if you do not want to bug the jump in with lots of rule explanation.

Start with the 62 points version if you want not to overwhelm them.

Both books published by Gaming Ballistic. You can find them in Warehouse 23.

If your son is young, you could play without advantages and disadvantages and introduce them slowly as if there were the Feats mechanic in other games. Adding one advantage after each adventure works fine.

As for the stealth, disarming traps, adventure with no combat start, I do think it is a marvelous approach to introduce the system in a first game.
The trouble with a 62 point character is that the PC canít really do too much dungeon-wise unless their skills are focused on dungeon delving. I would prefer the PC to be able to have some dungeon skills that can be used first. Maybe the adventures are more like exploring the dungeon and finding gear left behind by previous delvers or maybe some copper or silver coins. Combat should come later IMO because combat skills could be gained through points earned through adventuring.
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Old 12-02-2023, 11:34 AM   #4
namada
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Default Re: Dungeon Delver Class

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Originally Posted by Juan View Post
Delvers to grow is, IMO, the best entry.
Agreed. For Dungeon Fantasy RPG, it basically allows you to start at "first level" and you have much less to learn than the standard DFRPG level of 250 CP. That's if you've got no roleplaying experience though, IMO, if you've played some form of D&D before - standard DFRPG is 100% fine.

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Originally Posted by b-dog View Post
The trouble with a 62 point character is that the PC canít really do too much dungeon-wise...
100% genuine question - do you actually own Delvers to Grow? I know we've talked DFRPG recently, but I can't recall that at the moment...

Delvers to Grow characters are highly focused in their niche, plus you need to factor in the option of playing a race other than human (+20 points,) so at the very least you'd need to start with 82 point characters, though I'd round that up to 85, 90, or 100 - depending on how "old-school" you want the game to feel.
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Old 12-02-2023, 12:55 PM   #5
b-dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Default Re: Dungeon Delver Class

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Originally Posted by namada View Post
Agreed. For Dungeon Fantasy RPG, it basically allows you to start at "first level" and you have much less to learn than the standard DFRPG level of 250 CP. That's if you've got no roleplaying experience though, IMO, if you've played some form of D&D before - standard DFRPG is 100% fine.


100% genuine question - do you actually own Delvers to Grow? I know we've talked DFRPG recently, but I can't recall that at the moment...

Delvers to Grow characters are highly focused in their niche, plus you need to factor in the option of playing a race other than human (+20 points,) so at the very least you'd need to start with 82 point characters, though I'd round that up to 85, 90, or 100 - depending on how "old-school" you want the game to feel.
Yes. We made a 62 point Swashbuckler from that book, Delvers to Grow. I think I would just make a 75 point PC with skills used to explore a dungeon instead of the Delvers to Grow template. I think that after a few adventures then the PCs would start encountering monsters with the abilities to escape them in addition to combat them. When you think about it, why would a wizard or swashbuckler go into a dungeon without much dungeon delving ability? It makes more sense to have a PC that explores ruins and dungeons to find treasure to get enough money to start training to learn a few magical spells or to take classes to learn how to use a sword.

In any case I would really love to have some DF dungeons that focus more on exploration and dungeon obstacles. Or maybe a DF book of dungeon challenges where combat is not necessary but instead the space use their dungeon skills.
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Old 12-02-2023, 01:55 PM   #6
b-dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Default Re: Dungeon Delver Class

I was thinking that I would do something like Vampire the Masquerade where the PCs develop disciplines which are their vampire powers. Instead the the PCs in my Dungeon Fantasy would start out as delvers or dungeoneers and then gain enough money to learn to cast spells or learn combat or thieving skills. That way the PCs are not combat monsters to start out but gradually improve their combat ability through adventuring.

Last edited by b-dog; 12-02-2023 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 12-03-2023, 09:10 PM   #7
restlessgriffin
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Default Re: Dungeon Delver Class

Quote:
Originally Posted by b-dog View Post
Yes. We made a 62 point Swashbuckler from that book, Delvers to Grow. I think I would just make a 75 point PC with skills used to explore a dungeon instead of the Delvers to Grow template. I think that after a few adventures then the PCs would start encountering monsters with the abilities to escape them in addition to combat them. When you think about it, why would a wizard or swashbuckler go into a dungeon without much dungeon delving ability? It makes more sense to have a PC that explores ruins and dungeons to find treasure to get enough money to start training to learn a few magical spells or to take classes to learn how to use a sword.

In any case I would really love to have some DF dungeons that focus more on exploration and dungeon obstacles. Or maybe a DF book of dungeon challenges where combat is not necessary but instead the space use their dungeon skills.
Dungeons are dangerous places. Combat capabilities ARE required to survive dungeon delving. That being stated - they absolutely should having things like Climbing, Observation, Survival (appropriate_environment), Scrounging, Navigation, Cartography, Hiking. For magic user spells like Continual Light, Climbing, Balance, Lockpicking, Sense Foes, Walk on Air, etc.

As for setting up a Basic Delvers template, I seem to recall seeing an "everyman" list of things all delvers should have. I'm not sure if it was in a thread here or in Pyramid article or DFRPG supplement.

On the 75 point template on thing to be aware of is if you play a non-human race it will use 20+ points. I''d always choose race in conjunction with selecting a profession as that will ensure your not backing out of allocated points.
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