[Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

*Annoyedly searches for yet another weapons table.* :)
Okay, 14-22 depending on what designs are common.

The polearm has to be swung in Defensive Attacks much of the time, apparently; thanks for pointing this out. Or with the Staff skill (Sodegarami is kinda neat).

Another consideration: Adding a Hilt is a good option for Polearm tanks.

The main issue with defensive attack is that it can easily lead to one handed swords dealing more damage than polearms. DA damage penalty scales with damage dice, while the bonus from using a two handed polearm is flat. Staff skill use is sub-optimal. Both those issues make the tanks using them less threatening, and in a game without taunts and threat lists, a less threatening tank who also defends worse is a worse tank.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

The main issue with defensive attack is that it can easily lead to one handed swords dealing more damage than polearms. DA damage penalty scales with damage dice, while the bonus from using a two handed polearm is flat. Staff skill use is sub-optimal. Both those issues make the tanks using them less threatening, and in a game without taunts and threat lists, a less threatening tank who also defends worse is a worse tank.

However, when the rules provide perverse incentives that does not fit reality, the rules need to be adjusted.

Dual edged rapiers are not supposed to be the be-all and end-all weapon for high ST characters. If they are, it is likely that one or more of the following are true:

a) Basing damage on ST, with the weapon used being a slight modifier might insufficiently reflect the difference in leverage and power between a light sword and a two-handed polearm.
b) Allowing a character to swing at full power with a weapon in each hand might insufficiently reflect how the proper use of a weapon relies on the whole body.
c) Making the effective reach of an 8' forest bill and a 40" sword the same might be a gamable abstraction, but it is still monstrously unfair to the polearm.
d) Counting the parry penalty seperately for each weapon might overstate the independent use of each arm and underestimate the fact that parries, as well as other uses of weapons, rely on the positioning of the whole body.
e) Giving a Parry bonus of +2 to spears used with the Staff skill, but none at all to polearms used in the same way is a breakpoint that is too sharp and not in line with the experiences of Masters of Defence and modern SCA fighters. Duelling polearms should be about equal to heavy spears in their defensive applications, certainly no less than +1 to Parry.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

The main issue with defensive attack is that it can easily lead to one handed swords dealing more damage than polearms. DA damage penalty scales with damage dice, while the bonus from using a two handed polearm is flat. Staff skill use is sub-optimal. Both those issues make the tanks using them less threatening, and in a game without taunts and threat lists, a less threatening tank who also defends worse is a worse tank.

Dunno, polearms do sw+2 to sw+5, can often Hook, Sweep, Double-Slam etc. Edged Rapier does sw+0, and can do a Weapon Bind (though negating the multi-parry benefit in the process). A Broadsword does sw+1 and a Mace (U) does sw+3 cr. Difference seems unconvincing on average.

IMO a tank shouldn't strive to do three or more dice of damage as a main source of threat. A tank's role is disruption of enemy damage dealers and defence of the squishy ones, both of which rely on skill more than raw damage.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the 2×Rapier Tank, but I think such a Tank will thrive only in multi-target situations with small-weight threats (i.e. no ogres, no halberds, no enemy shield-tanks).

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

e) Giving a Parry bonus of +2 to spears used with the Staff skill, but none at all to polearms used in the same way is a breakpoint that is too sharp and not in line with the experiences of Masters of Defence and modern SCA fighters. Duelling polearms should be about equal to heavy spears in their defensive applications, certainly no less than +1 to Parry.

*shrug*
Basic says that the SKILL gives +2.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

*shrug*
Basic says that the SKILL gives +2.

While Martial Art and then Low-Tech clearly list polearms used with Staff skill on their weapon tables and explicitly give Parry 0.

The RAW is that polearms don't get this bonus, at all. I argued for a +1 bonus in the playtest of LT and it was not perceived as unrealistic by the authors, as I recall, but ultimately, it was not included. It is possible that a desire not to contract Martial Arts played some part here.

[Kuroshima]

Icelander, I agree that the dual edged rapiers are too good. Still, if this thread wants to remain true to the tiyle, house rules should be avoided, and we should strive for full RAW compliance.

Now, I've been toying with this ideas:
Make all weapons damage mods per die. Double DR. Double firearm damage. Halve injury
Make all off hand parries suffer -5 per successive parry, just like shields.
Without Ambidexterity/off hand weapon training, attacks with the off hand suffer -2 damage/die, or have their weapon bonuses halved, whatever is worse
Off hand attacks that are not Dual weapon attacks suffer an additional -1/dice if used on the same turn as a main hand attack.

[Fred Brackin]

A weapon mix not discussed yet is Flail (Morningstar) and shield. You effectively give up 1 pt of skill for it beign a Hard Skill yet inflict a -2 to block,a -4 to Parry and screw everyone trying to Fence with less than an Edgeed Rapier by doing so. That's a very bread and butter thing to be doing on every attack.

Opponents can adapt by going to Dodge but it's stil worth it to neutralize their probably hgher Parries.

Speaking of penalties on every round, max out Counterattack. That's another -2 to Defense Rolls with no penalty to Skill as for Deceptive Attack.

Then to compensate for the lack of a damage multiplier after penetration you max out Targeted Attacki(Skull). For a -3 that is x4 after armor on every hit.

Add high ST plus Weapon Master and you've got a character that opponents really should not attack one-on-one. They'll attract multiple attackers that way. There is a slight vulnerability to multiple attackers compared to single attacks but this can be compensated for by killing one of your attackers every round.

For people with long memories the name of this character was Nyx the Barbarian and once you got into melee range she was definitely the primnary target even in the presence of a mage like Aldehar the Incendiary. Ignore her to get o him and she'll kill you and your buddies too.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

A weapon mix not discussed yet is Flail (Morningstar) and shield.

Possibly because it's not relevant to actual tanking. The fundamental feature of a tank is that it's a character who's dangerous to ignore, and yet too tough to easily eliminate. Being dangerous in a straight up fight is nice, but incidental, because it means you aren't being ignored. A flail is not a good weapon for that role -- its advantages don't apply when you're being ignored (since being ignored generally means you're being offered flank or back shots that aren't really subject to parry, block, or shields), it reduces your durability (due to a poor parry, and being unbalanced), and its damage is unexceptional (due to crushing).

In a DF-type game, I'd probably prioritize ST and armor.

[Gef]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Judo Throw. Not only does it let you knock someone down but it might stun them which is a huge advantage.

Especially with the perk Hands Free (from PU2), like Cotton Stomach but you can make it apply to throws instead of locks. And since you can hold an object in your hand, you can get the DB of a shield on the set-up parry. Why not? It's cinematic. Combine with Extra Attacks (Hands-Free Throw Only): Opponents charge the tank and wind up all over the floor.

[Trachmyr]

The Shoves and Tackles Perk for Shield (or Polearm) is also very nice.

Also for Shield users, deffinately check out the Focused Defense rules from MA: Gladiators.

Generally, I find tanks typically have two problems unless you prepare for it a head of time... The first is Close Combat. The second is what happens when you fall down? Tanks should have a good plan for both situations.