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Old 04-05-2022, 08:33 AM   #21
Phoenix_Dragon
 
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Default Re: [Shotguns] Is this a house rule?

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
I must say, I find our house rule more logical and realistic than RAW, which seems to ignore the very physics it applies to Rcl of all other firearms.
I'd have to disagree. It is completely possible to miss entirely with the first shell while hitting with some pellets from the second shell, which your houserule makes impossible. It's kind of the entire reason to fire multiple shots; your first round might miss, but if you fire enough times, one of them might hit. Your houserule only accounts for situations where you start on-target and recoil forces you off-target, but not ones where you start off-target but either walk the shots on-target or saturate the area enough that one of the later shots hit.
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Old 04-05-2022, 10:14 AM   #22
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Default Re: [Shotguns] Is this a house rule?

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Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
I'd have to disagree. It is completely possible to miss entirely with the first shell while hitting with some pellets from the second shell, which your houserule makes impossible. It's kind of the entire reason to fire multiple shots; your first round might miss, but if you fire enough times, one of them might hit. Your houserule only accounts for situations where you start on-target and recoil forces you off-target, but not ones where you start off-target but either walk the shots on-target or saturate the area enough that one of the later shots hit.
The same critique would apply to the existing resolution system for Rapid Fire of regular bullets. If you autofire 5 rounds from an assault rifle, you hit with bullets up to your margin of success and then don't hit with subsequent ones.
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Old 04-05-2022, 01:51 PM   #23
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Default Re: [Shotguns] Is this a house rule?

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
The same critique would apply to the existing resolution system for Rapid Fire of regular bullets. If you autofire 5 rounds from an assault rifle, you hit with bullets up to your margin of success and then don't hit with subsequent ones.
The Basic Set doesn't say which bullets hit, just how many.

Tactical Shooting AFAIK was the first to address the 'which bullets' question. I think the answer had some weird properties but it was not order-dependent.
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Old 04-05-2022, 02:18 PM   #24
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Default Re: [Shotguns] Is this a house rule?

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I suspect that isn't really meant for scoring multiple hits, honestly. You shoot two bullets at the chest to make it more likely at least one of them will hit*, and the shot to the head is because a) that's where recoil naturally "walks" your aimpoint to anyway and b) if a hit to the chest didn't stop them, another probably won't either, so you need a CNS hit. Personally, I wonder if going pelvis->chest->head might not be better (it's still in the natural direction for recoil, and has the first shot have a good chance of knocking them down by functionally crippling their legs, the second shot being one with a higher hit chance that still has a decent chance of stopping the target, and the last being a go-for-broke option. But I assume there are good reasons to go chest->chest->head.
The NZ Police once upon a time, when they issued firearms far less often, and so training in them was fairly minimal for most policemen, trained non-specialist constables to aim low to start (i.e. at the bottom of the torso) and let the recoil ride their shots up as they fired - and to fire until their gun (a revolver at the time) was empty or the opponent went down. So that was very definitely what you're suggesting. However, it had nothing to do with trying for a broken pelvis (bad odds of that), but maximising hit chances for someone with little training.
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Old 04-05-2022, 03:21 PM   #25
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Default Re: [Shotguns] Is this a house rule?

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4.5 - 3 = 1.5, not 2.5.
Good catch, embarassed to mess that up.
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Now, each hit at Longer range does an average of 4.5 rolled, -3 for DR, or theoretically 1.5. However, in reality, no damage die can get below 0, so instead we have: die rolls of 1 or 2 = 0, 3 = 1, 4 = 2, 5 = 3, 6 = 4, for an actual average per die of 1.67.

But then each hit, being pi-, usually does half that in actual injury. At a roll of 10, that's an average of 1.67 × 6 hits = 10 points of rolled damage, or 5 points (usually) of injury.
Actually given the whole "Round fractions down, but the minimum injury is 1" the penetrating damage you calculated of 0/0/1/2/3/4 would actually be 0/0/1/1/1/2 injury wouldn't it? That'd be 5/6 injury on average so x6 hits would ... oh huh that actually works out to 5 injury exactly still, not sure if it'd be the same for other numbers though.

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Each hit at Shorter range does an average of 18 rolled, -12 for DR, or 6. It's still pi-, so usually half for actual injury again. For a roll of 10, that's 1 hit for 6 points of rolled damage, or 3 injury. But for a roll of 9, that's 2 hits × 6 average damage each, or 6 injury. And for a roll of 8, it's 18 damage for 9 points of injury, but that's as far as it can go.
So we're looking at 3/6/9 injury competing with 5/5.83/6.6 (then 7.5/8.3/9.16) so basically it seems like the close-range spread is inferior at MoS zero but better as MoS 1 and 2, though with higher skill rolls the other formula eventually pulls ahead by MoS of 6 ?

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BUT, notice that I didn't account for the increased range modifiers at the longer ranges. A roll of 10 at 4-5 yards is the same as a roll of 11 at 6-7 yards, so the number of hits at Longer range drops by 1 to 5, or 8.33 damage giving 4.17 injury. At 8-10 yards, it comes to 6.67 damage or 3.33 injury. 11-15 yards gives 5 damage or 2.5 injury. At 30 yards, it's equivalent to 1 hit doing 1.67 damage, or an average of 0.83 injury.

These, of course, are significantly altered if using the simplified range rules for Action and similar variants.
I figure that stuff doesn't matter since you can't fire using the close-range formula at those ranges anyway.

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I'll leave it as an exercise for someone else to work out how these hits are affected by the Skull location, which has an another 2 DR (so each Longer range die is 1-4 = 0, 5 = 1, 6 = 2, for an average of 0.5 rolled damage per hit; meanwhile 4d+4 against 20 total DR averages less than 0 points of rolled damage per hit, so that's fun and I am not sure if that works out well, mathwise), but even pi- takes a ×4 injury modifier.
yeah hit locations are where this could matter more since that can apply at close ranges

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
At such close range, the pellets haven't spread enough to justify any bonus to the chance to hit, hence lack of said bonus. Something you may be missing in all this, however, is that being at such close range changes the damage type from pi to pi++. This was later clarified by Kromm, and later still made it into print in Tactical Shooting.
Anyone recall where in TS it talks about bumping up the piercing tier like this?
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Old 04-05-2022, 05:43 PM   #26
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Default Re: [Shotguns] Is this a house rule?

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
The same critique would apply to the existing resolution system for Rapid Fire of regular bullets. If you autofire 5 rounds from an assault rifle, you hit with bullets up to your margin of success and then don't hit with subsequent ones.
That's not true. You hit with a certain number of rounds, yes, but the Rapid Fire rules don't specify which rounds you hit with. If you hit with 3 rounds, it could be the first three (you keep the burst on-target for a few rounds before recoil pushes you off), or the last three (your initial point of aim was off but you "walk" the burst on-target), or some other combination of three rounds (your point of aim is bouncing all around the target, hitting sporadically). The Basic Set doesn't have any rules for determining which rounds hit in the event that it matters (because honestly, it usually doesn't).

It wasn't until Tactical Shooting that there were any rules that touched at all on which rounds hit. Even then, it specifically notes that the rules aren't concerned about the order of the rounds fired (which has no effect on the outcome), only the number of each type of round fired.
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Old 04-05-2022, 06:15 PM   #27
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Default Re: [Shotguns] Is this a house rule?

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Anyone recall where in TS it talks about bumping up the piercing tier like this?
TS6, under the "Shot Shredder" myth (for reference, that's the myth that a shotgun "shreds" its target at close range; it suggests that, realistically, a close-in shotgun should use the Rcl statistics of a slug and boost damage to pi++).
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Old 04-05-2022, 09:00 PM   #28
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Default Re: [Shotguns] Is this a house rule?

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
TS6, under the "Shot Shredder" myth (for reference, that's the myth that a shotgun "shreds" its target at close range; it suggests that, realistically, a close-in shotgun should use the Rcl statistics of a slug and boost damage to pi++).
ah okay, so maybe the enhanced recoil balances the improvement on the wound multiplier a bit?

HT104 has those alt recoils, meaning a lot harder to land a 2nd instance of the 4d+4 but I guess with a x2 wounding one is all you'd need.
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Old 04-06-2022, 03:02 AM   #29
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Default Re: [Shotguns] Is this a house rule?

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
ah okay, so maybe the enhanced recoil balances the improvement on the wound multiplier a bit?

HT104 has those alt recoils, meaning a lot harder to land a 2nd instance of the 4d+4 but I guess with a x2 wounding one is all you'd need.
Generally ×2, but don't forget that Skull is still ×4, regardless of the size of piercing. And I'd forgotten earlier that Vitals hits are ×3 for all piercing attacks, so that affects the calculation too. 4d+4 = as before an average roll of 18, minus multiplied DR of 12 = 6, which gives an injury of 18 on a Vitals hit. Compare to X hits at 1d+1, but each takes a DR of 3; rolls of 1-2 = 0, 3 = 3, 4 = 6, 5 = 9, 6 = 12, or an average of 5 points of injury for each hit.

In actuality, the final average for the 4d+4-(4×DR) roll is slightly higher because very low rolls still only count as 0 rather than negative damage, but that effect is less pronounced than the smaller dice rolls. Running it through a dice calculator, it looks like the average roll after subtracting DR is a bit over 6.04, hardly a significant difference.
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Old 04-06-2022, 11:54 AM   #30
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Default Re: [Shotguns] Is this a house rule?

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Generally ×2, but don't forget that Skull is still ×4, regardless of the size of piercing. And I'd forgotten earlier that Vitals hits are ×3 for all piercing attacks, so that affects the calculation too. 4d+4 = as before an average roll of 18, minus multiplied DR of 12 = 6, which gives an injury of 18 on a Vitals hit. Compare to X hits at 1d+1, but each takes a DR of 3; rolls of 1-2 = 0, 3 = 3, 4 = 6, 5 = 9, 6 = 12, or an average of 5 points of injury for each hit.
Realistically, a larger caliber projectile (or a cluster of projectiles close together, approximating a frangible slug) should cause more Injury going through the brain (Skull) or heart/lung/kidney (Vitals). However, while x2 to go from 9 mm (pi) to 18 mm (pi++) is probably alright when going through muscle, bone, and less vital organs (a normal Torso hit), it would likely be excessive for representing the difference when a brain or heart/lungs/kidney hit occurs (going from x4 to x8, or x3 to x6). Honestly, part of me feels using an additive scheme would be alright - pi++ to the Skull is x5 (while pi- to the Skull is x3.5), pi++ to the Vitals is x4 (while pi- to the Vitals is x2.5), and so forth.
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