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Old 03-21-2021, 04:16 AM   #11
maximara
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Default Re: Magic and Technology balance

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Originally Posted by Polkageist View Post
The setting is TL7/8 or so with guns, where wizards are incapable of using guns?
I'm curious as to how that works out, but yeah I'll take that for granted.

What it feels like is that you're bringing a (magical) knife to a literal gunfight. While wizards are certainly capable of keeping up with moderately skilled warriors in the damage department in low-tech settings (for example, my DF wizards are on par w/ the archer and has some very nice high damage bursts), when the TL scoots up wizards become less the second-line combatants and more highly versatile problem solvers.

Being a wizard in a gunfight is a bit like being a rapier duellist in a fight with an armored guy wielding a big ol' sword or something. You're just outclassed in terms of damage, defenses, probably durability. Sure you could pull of some interesting tricks (get in close maybe?) just as a wizard could as well but the point is that the rapier isn't going to be very effective in that scenario just as a wizard is going to struggle in a gunfight.

But as was previously pointed out wizards have the ability to bypass barriers that are simply insurmountable by others. Send a magical message that can't be intercepted, become invisible, scout ahead without risk, heal, buff your frontliners, disrupt and harass enemies.

A wizard in a high TL environment is in the similar role as a thief or bard. Support. Stealth. Versatility. And the ability to break out a 3d fireball in an office building where an assault rifle simply isn't an option.
Fight on a battlefield? Wizard sucks
Fight in a subway? Wizard rules
Everybody seems to forget about Reverse Missiles (M168) which I used to represent an ability in the 3x3 Eyes anime in one of my fanfics:

"DIE!" screamed Hitomebore running from the cloud the bullets hitting a barrier between her and Choukai flying back to hit her.

"I think not," glared Choukai. "Let's see if the rumors of the O-part making you the equal of a Wu are true," he said tossing a ward that exploded half of Hitomebore's face off.

"YOU KNOW HOW LONG IT TAKES MY FACE TO REPAIR ITSELF? FREAKING DIE ALREADY!" yelled Hitomebore shooting her guns until they ran out of ammo.

"Let's those who side against our Lord Jesus Christ taste his wrath," yelled Anderson as he threw bayonet after bayonet at the Chinaman.

"Really Anderson, do you think your pathetic weapons are a match for the likes of me?" asked Choukai as every bayonet bounced off the shield and back at Anderson turning him into a pincushion.

"I have many questions," said Satan her wings a tattered mess her left leg broken in four places. "But right now all I want is the name of the true mastermind behind Millennium and I don't mean Gruber. Who is your Kaiyanwang?"

"The inventor of the most power destructive weapon humans ever made quoted him and you don't know who he is?" grinned Choukai.

"You hurt my master. You tried to force her to become like me. NOW YOU DIE!" screamed Alucard his guns blazing.

"My dear Vlad," grinned Choukai as the bullets tore Alucard to pieces. "Haven't you been paying attention? None of your weapons can get to me. All you do is hurt yourselves."

"Actually Choukai, I've been paying attention," said Integra walking forward. "Your ward works against ranged attacks, but not against melee ones!" she yelled as she dashed toward the man.

---
The animal form of this little piece of joy is the Chin-Kuu (Mirror Tick, 鏡蠱) and functions much like the above scene. What good is a gun if shooting at the mage results in the bullets coming back and hitting you?
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Old 03-21-2021, 04:51 PM   #12
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Default Re: Magic and Technology balance

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Everybody seems to forget about Reverse Missiles (M168)
Ah, Reverse Missiles, what can't you do? Enchant that with some Power and you've got the best war medic. And if we consider that the book doesn't differentiate between the size of ranged attacks...
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Old 03-21-2021, 05:27 PM   #13
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Of course there are too the healing spells, they are more effective and way cheaper than anything non magical until TL 10. A single healing mage with enough powerstones can replace a full hospital, not to mention that people magical healed are fully functional direct after casting successfully. Imagine a war where every wounded is ready to fight the next day again, no nead to heal for weeks while cared for and fed and all that what normal medicine until TL 10 means.
Or the logistics side like unlimited food supply, or transport spells especially gate spells.
Another trick a good support mage can have is the zombie spell, turn your emenys dead into your own troops and let the emeny deal with them. That means a lot of canon fodder to take the hits for you.
I thought for a scenario once about golems on the modern battelfield. They are strong enough to wear heavy armor, add a chaingun and enough ammo, and you have the magic equivalent of a Terminator. Yes enchanting is costly and takes a lot of time, but consider the money a wizard earns, and the actual prize of military equipment.
Not to mention the whole bunch of spells that make a soldier more effective like bravery or haste ... .
Yes a mage should stay away from battlefield, but as supporting cast he or she is invaluable.

In the civil jobs a mage is also great not in things machines can do easier, but for example the making and breaking school helps to make sure a machine works, no unknown weakpoint or damaged parts, if they are there they can be fast repaired, sometimes and with the right spells even without dismanteling the whole thing.
Of course the healing works well here too, imagine a modern hospital where the doctors and mages gang up to heal the patients, even at TL7 and up there are no more any operations that are too risky.

Last edited by Willy; 03-21-2021 at 05:32 PM. Reason: spelling error added example
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Old 03-21-2021, 06:15 PM   #14
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Another trick a good support mage can have is the zombie spell, turn your emenys dead into your own troops and let the emeny deal with them. That means a lot of canon fodder to take the hits for you.
"Feeding a normal army is a problem of logistics. With zombies, it is an asset. Feeding is why they fight. Feeding is why they are feared."
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Old 03-21-2021, 06:19 PM   #15
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Ah, reverse missiles, the most weirdly misunderstood spell. Well, not in the fanfic, that's totally on point reversing actual ranged attacks.

Very useful, for sure, pricey as all get out.
And as a magic item? Whoooooooo, gonna need some $$$ to afford that bit of flash, certainly aren't going to be outfitting an army with them. Especially if the casting/maintenance cost is offset.

Anyway, yeah the book doesn't distinguish the size of ranged attacks, but it does distinguish that it's a ranged attack. Against the mage, specifically from one entity to another entity.

So like, shrapnel wouldn't return to anyone because there's no 'thing' to return them to (probably just acts like regular ol' missile shield), or a bomb landing on or nearby if it's not pointing explicitly at the mage. This all comes from my opinion that magic isn't a computer where you can put in X and get out Y, magic is testy and doesn't like being edge-cased.
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Old 03-21-2021, 06:24 PM   #16
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Default Re: Magic and Technology balance

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And as a magic item? Whoooooooo, gonna need some $$$ to afford that bit of flash, certainly aren't going to be outfitting an army with them. Especially if the casting/maintenance cost is offset.
Yeah, that's why I was thinking medics. Having a percent of your people being incapable of being hit by traditional war weapons is best on the people healing the ones who are capable of it.

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So like, shrapnel wouldn't return to anyone because there's no 'thing' to return them to (probably just acts like regular ol' missile shield), or a bomb landing on or nearby if it's not pointing explicitly at the mage. This all comes from my opinion that magic isn't a computer where you can put in X and get out Y, magic is testy and doesn't like being edge-cased.
In general I do accept that concept, but as written Magic is pretty explicit in how it works and is more of 'fantasy science' than 'mystical magic'.
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Old 03-21-2021, 06:43 PM   #17
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Now that I think about it, computers are quite testy and don't like to be edge-cased. The weird behavior I've seen...
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Old 03-21-2021, 08:24 PM   #18
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Now that I think about it, computers are quite testy and don't like to be edge-cased. The weird behavior I've seen...
A computer is a rock we tricked into thinking with lightning.

I don't think that line would fly in any fantasy novel.
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Old 03-21-2021, 09:14 PM   #19
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Default Re: Magic and Technology balance

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Originally Posted by Polkageist View Post
Ah, reverse missiles, the most weirdly misunderstood spell. Well, not in the fanfic, that's totally on point reversing actual ranged attacks.
Thanks. I tried to keep to the spirit of the spell while trying to model what went on in the 3x3 eyes manga

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Very useful, for sure, pricey as all get out.
And as a magic item? Whoooooooo, gonna need some $$$ to afford that bit of flash, certainly aren't going to be outfitting an army with them. Especially if the casting/maintenance cost is offset.
Actually with the 4e Industrial Enchantment rules in play the higher the TL the cheaper (relatively speaking) it becomes. At TL4 you have, per point, $29.09 "assembly line" vs $66⅔ hand crafted and that's counting a 25% markup for the industrial method.

So a TL 4 Reverse Missles-15 with Spell Power 2 item (640) is going to cost $18,617 vs the ~$42,666⅔ having the thing hand made. Better yet 10 energy takes 1 day. If your mages have figured out how to make the Mana Pool quirk on demand the medic becomes a 1 hex mana enhancer with the item.

A modest 10 mage TL 4 "factory" will be popping out one of these things every 32 days, at TL 5 the energy per point for the line stays about the same while efficiency goes from 2 to 5 reducing the time to 12.8 days and this efficiency goes up per day.
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Old 03-22-2021, 03:40 AM   #20
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Default Re: Magic and Technology balance

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Ah, Reverse Missiles, what can't you do? Enchant that with some Power and you've got the best war medic. And if we consider that the book doesn't differentiate between the size of ranged attacks...
Sir, uh, the colony drop has started, no rather it- abruptly, uh, it is reversing at full speed sir.
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