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Old 12-07-2021, 10:08 PM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default GURPS Zombies TV examples of 1 weapon grapplin 2 zombies simultaneous, how to crunch?

There's been three instances which I can remember...
The Walking Dead: World Beyond s1e3 has someone grappling and eventually shoving 2 zombies simultaneously w/ a staff held in cross-checking (defensive) stance https://youtu.be/H7LFboTTBh4

TWD:WB 2e10 (series finale which aired couple nights ago) has a char attacking 2nd zombie w/ other end of double-ended spear while it's still stuck in the head of the 1st zombie by pulling 2nd zombie into the spear: https://youtu.be/oGsaq2FWV3c

The 5th episode of the Day of the Dead TV series also had a similarly interesting scene where one of the stars impales one zombie so far through the torso that it impales the zombie behind it and has them stuck together for a bit, allowing an escape https://youtu.be/hqVKL9bvsJI
This type of creative stuff would be cool to emulate when doing zombie crowd control with a limited number of available weapons, and the latter 2 cases also seem to emphasize how you can't necessarily take retrieving your weapon for granted after a high-damage thrust.

Was wondering why ideas gamers might have for how to represent situations this using Martial Arts / Technical Grappling rules.

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For the 1st (WBe3) I was thinking MA112's "Shoves with Weapons" as a starting point. This seems to be exactly what happens at the end, but leading up to that, I figure if you can do a slam or shove w/ a reach 2 weapon against 2 zombies, then you should probably be able to grapple 2 zombies w/ the weapon too?

Just a bit more complicated since it's not merely an attack, but also how to treat stuff like Break Free. I figure if you are -4 to hit (as with a Dual Weapon Attack except it's two ends of a weapon) you could do that for the initial grapple, but then also apply that -4 to skill to result in a -2 to defend against a zombie's "Break Free" attack attempting to reduce your Control Points on it?

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For the 2nd (WBe20) the best starting point I can think of would be treating this like Twofers : Kiss the Wall (MA118) but I'm not sure about the penalties. You're not actually grappling the 1st zombie, instead you're grappling the spear whose blade is stuck inside the 1st zombie's mouth... how should the difficulty of that compare to "I'm grabbing a pair of zombie skulls and smashing their skulls together" which via the "worst penalty" system would be -7 to hit (or -5 if smashing the backs together)

Does anyone recall if it's legal to do a Dual Weapon Attack with two ends of a long weapon? Closest I can think of to this is MA123's "Parrying with Two-Handed Weapons" reduced "Multiple Parries" penalty rate which emulates alternating between a pair of weapons (-4 every other parry vs -2 to parry)

This doesn't quite seem like a DWA though because a DWA is a near-simultaneous attack (same second) against two targets (which as per above you can do at least with a "shove" or "slam" not sure about your standard "swing" attach though) while in this case there's a clear delay between the 1st impale and the 2nd.

It's like he figured "it's less effort for me to pull the 2nd zombie into the spear than to spend time/effort withdrawing the spear and then thrust it into the 2nd zombie".

Crunchwise I'm wondering how to prove him right, because it sort of makes sense.

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For the 3rd (DotDe5) two tools come to mind but I don't know how to put them together. MA106's "Holding a Foe at Bay" has one approach to "run himself through" though it only by choice of the target, and the need for a successful Will roll makes it something unlikely for a low-IQ zombie to succeed at.

A simpler approach might be to use a rule that can be applied for shooting arrows through primary targets at secondary ones (Overpenetration) and apply them to non-ranged impaling attacks too (just use cover DR)

As for actually hitting the secondary target, I'm guessing that's something like a separate roll at -2 for partial cover except you're taking the option of striking through the cover instead of around it? I don't know if that should alter the modifier in some way: should it be just as easy to "stab a zombie through a zombie" as it is to "stab a zombie around a zombie" ?
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Old 12-08-2021, 07:31 AM   #2
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: GURPS Zombies TV examples of 1 weapon grapplin 2 zombies simultaneous, how to cru

For the first case, I'd say that's just a Dual Weapon Attack (I think cross-checking two adjacent enemies with a staff or haft of a polearm/spear is given as an example of that somewhere in Martial Arts), with the GM allowing the character to use it similarly to Holding a Foe at Bay - it's generally not really a grapple (although if you manage to shove a foe up against a wall, it would be). I need to reread Fantastic Dungeon Grappling, however - I believe that the rules for treating a "sword bind" (when two characters are pushing their weapons against each other) as a grapple might be applicable here.
EDIT: Just remembered, I actually have FDG on this machine. Handling this using those rules, I'd say it's a DWA grapple (on two foes), functioning as a weapon bind (which means the zombies could get out of it by just taking a step back, but they aren't smart enough for that). I'd treat it as being a one-handed grapple on each zombie, for -2 to "damage." Presumably, the GM is allowing the character to hold them at Reach 1, so they can't actually attack him. (EDIT2: On second thought, the grapple is actually restraining their arms, which is why they can't grab him; that's arguably a function of high CP - the zombies technically can still grab him, but they're taking enough of a DX penalty they just keep failing)

For the second case, the character shoves the spear into one zombie, but it doesn't fall; he then grapples the other zombie and uses Grab and Smash! to shove it and the spear together; it staying in the first zombie during this is probably a special effect (although the GM may have opted to treat it like a stuck impaling weapon, as for sw imp or barbed weapons, requiring a Ready and roll against ST to pull it out).

For the third case, just applying the rules for overpenetration to melee impaling weapons should suffice for the whole "impaling both at once" thing. For them being stuck together afterward, they're basically inflicting CP on each other, due to the skewer binding them together. Stuck impaling weapons inflict CP equal to the damage they dealt IIRC, so I'd go with that here - perhaps cutting it in half on account of them not purposefully trying to use it to restrict movement, as someone in a grapple would.
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Last edited by Varyon; 12-08-2021 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 12-08-2021, 04:42 PM   #3
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: GURPS Zombies TV examples of 1 weapon grapplin 2 zombies simultaneous, how to cru

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
For the third case, just applying the rules for overpenetration to melee impaling weapons should suffice for the whole "impaling both at once" thing. For them being stuck together afterward, they're basically inflicting CP on each other, due to the skewer binding them together. Stuck impaling weapons inflict CP equal to the damage they dealt IIRC, so I'd go with that here - perhaps cutting it in half on account of them not purposefully trying to use it to restrict movement, as someone in a grapple would.
one thing I like for grittier is actually requiring you to do a "break free" or "escaping parry" to reduce CP your weapons automatically apply to represent wrenching it free

one way to avoid getting weapons stuck would be to do lower-ST attacks (fewer CP) to make it easier to get them free
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day of the dead, dual weapon attack, the walking dead, world beyond, zombies

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