My thoughts on Staves

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Nope, the Staff grip in GURPS gives equal Reach and equal damage in the RAW.

Well you talking about a change to make it useful, especial with a matter of inches, this seem to be the obvious change to make.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Well you talking about a change to make it useful, especial with a matter of inches, this seem to be the obvious change to make.

Under the A Matter of Inches system, a quarterstaff used in the Staff grip is equally long as one used in the Two-Handed Sword grip.

Obviously, in my campaigns, it is different, but the difference is still less than 1 hex.

[vicky_molokh]

Based on the Staff Kata I saw, it seems more like certain aspects of Two-Handed Sword skill are part of the Staff skill - specifically, the by-the-end grip without any consideration regarding the orientation of the weapon. I'm saying this because the very first kata I was supposed to learn included such moves (as in, normally 'starter' kata include basic moves, while the later-learned ones have more advanced moves).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Based on the Staff Kata I saw, it seems more like certain aspects of Two-Handed Sword skill are part of the Staff skill - specifically, the by-the-end grip without any consideration regarding the orientation of the weapon. I'm saying this because the very first kata I was supposed to learn included such moves (as in, normally 'starter' kata include basic moves, while the later-learned ones have more advanced moves).

I think that may have been the assumption that underlay these stats, yes.

But given that the Staff skill is DX/A just as most other combat skills, it seems unreasonable to have it be that much more effective.

Just like Kenjutsu includes both Broadsword and Two-Handed Sword to perform many of the basic moves of the style, many staff-based styles will include both Staff and Two-Handed Sword.

As indeed Shaolin Kung Fu does.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I think that may have been the assumption that underlay these stats, yes.

But given that the Staff skill is DX/A just as most other combat skills, it seems unreasonable to have it be that much more effective.

Just like Kenjutsu includes both Broadsword and Two-Handed Sword to perform many of the basic moves of the style, many staff-based styles will include both Staff and Two-Handed Sword.

As indeed Shaolin Kung Fu does.

Well, it is DX/A, but it normally only works with rather specific forms of weapons. Compare to Guns(SMG), which covers anything from a converted-to-autofire Glock to a Tompson Submachine Gun.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Icelander

So I reduce the damage of all weapons used with Staff* to thr+1 cr and sw+1 cr. That way, if a character wants to make a powerful swing, he has to use Two-Handed Sword skill for it and if he wants to thrust for thr+2 damage, he needs to use Spear skill or Reverse Grip.

The thing about doing this is that it's suddenly doing the same damage as a lot of one-handed wooden swinging weapons (like the light club, hook sword, knobbed club, small round mace, bokken used in one hand...). My personal experience with staves, and what I've gotten from folks who contact-spar with them, and what little physics I remember, says the two-handed staff should be doing more damage than them. If you fix this by lowing those one-handed weapons in damage, you have to spill that fix all the way down the line to include just about any one-handed weapon.

It also oddly implies that this weapon is most effective as a weapon when used as if it was another weapon entirely. That's...boggling on a lot of levels. Not the least of which is that I'm not sure why Two-Handed Sword would teach you a better, more effective swinging for a 6' stick than the actual Staff skill would. They don't mutually default, either, so you couldn't ever learn that one clever grip-and-swing technique to get +1 damage without learning a whole new skill. Spear is a less glaring case, but I'm not sure what you are learning in Spear School that makes you poke better with blunt weapons than the folks who actually learn to fight with that specific blunt weapon.

The mid-point Parry bonus approach isn't a bad idea, though, but damage gets funky when you try to move points around. As you know, the upcoming GURPS Low-Tech does that, but generally we moved a few underpowered (and thus underused) weapons up, since there isn't much room to create more spread in the exiting range of weapons.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Just like Kenjutsu includes both Broadsword and Two-Handed Sword to perform many of the basic moves of the style, many staff-based styles will include both Staff and Two-Handed Sword.

As indeed Shaolin Kung Fu does.

My copy of GURPS Martial Arts disagrees with you here. I'm looking at pg. 194 and I don't see Two-Handed Sword at all on Shaolin Kung Fu.

Wing Chun (pg. 204) does, as an optional skill, but that's a very specific case - lots of schools seem to take the approach of teaching you to fight with a staff (presumably a boat's pole) by swinging it around at maximum reach, without much emphasis on the cool stuff that you can do with a staff otherwise. But since it more-or-less originated as a way for people on boats to fight other people also on boats, it's less representative than exceptional.

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Icelander

So I reduce the damage of all weapons used with Staff* to thr+1 cr and sw+1 cr. That way, if a character wants to make a powerful swing, he has to use Two-Handed Sword skill for it and if he wants to thrust for thr+2 damage, he needs to use Spear skill or Reverse Grip.

Maybe instead of making a staff master learn lots of different skills, you could just say that for sw+2 or thr+2, he must forfeit the +2 to parry for his round. Using the +2 to parry gives you sw+1 and thr+1.

In fact, you could extend this to all pole weapons. Spears used at -1 to damage get +2 to parry. Halberds used at -1 to damage get +2 to parry. And so on. Heck, even a 2 handed sword held with one hand well along the blade might qualify for +2 to parry at -1 to damage (they were historically often used like this).

Luke

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Does the hive mind believe that I'm totally off here?

I once read, probably in an Usenet post, that during a certain long period in medieval England, more murders were committed with quarterstaves than with all other weapons combined. They can really injure people.

The main problem is perhaps that a quarterstaff isn't efficient at all at injuring armoured opponents, especially ones wearing metal armour, even more so rigig metal armour. AFAIK GURPS doesn't simulate that fact at all. So maybe that's what you should look into?

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

Maybe instead of making a staff master learn lots of different skills, you could just say that for sw+2 or thr+2, he must forfeit the +2 to parry for his round. Using the +2 to parry gives you sw+1 and thr+1.

In fact, you could extend this to all pole weapons. Spears used at -1 to damage get +2 to parry. Halberds used at -1 to damage get +2 to parry. And so on. Heck, even a 2 handed sword held with one hand well along the blade might qualify for +2 to parry at -1 to damage (they were historically often used like this).

That's a much better option than saying that all Staff users must automatically also have Two Handed Sword and Spear Skills at the same level as their Staff skill.

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

The main problem is perhaps that a quarterstaff isn't efficient at all at injuring armoured opponents, especially ones wearing metal armour, even more so rigig metal armour. AFAIK GURPS doesn't simulate that fact at all. So maybe that's what you should look into?

That's more an issue of armor stats, we already have multiple current threads on that subject.